The Art Of Trust Building. Part 2 - How To Build & Repair Trust

In Part 2 of this special series on Trust, Andy Goram (left) and Drs Michelle & Dennis Reina discuss how to build and repairing trust

Trust gets talked about constantly in organisations. We put it into values statements. Leadership principles. Culture decks. We speak about it in Town Halls. But when trust starts to weaken somewhere, most of us will still struggle to talk about it clearly.

The symptoms can show up everywhere. First communication can get cautious.People stop challenging each other honestly. Decisions take longer. Collaboration narrows. Politics creeps in. You can feel it long before anyone names it, or tries to do anything about it.

That’s why Part 2 of my conversation with Dr Dennis and Dr Michelle Reina felt so useful to me. Because this wasn’t another abstract conversation about why trust matters. It was a conversation about what trust actually looks like in practice.

You can listen to Part 2 here, or read the full transcript that follows below this blog.

Trust Needs To Become More Observable

One of the problems with trust is that people often describe it emotionally rather than behaviourally. We say:

“I trust them.” Or: “I don’t trust leadership.”

But that can mean dozens of different things depending on the person, the environment, and the experience behind it. The Reinas’ 3Cs framework cuts through a lot of that ambiguity and creates a common language and understanding on how trust is built, or eroded.

It comes down to Trust of Character. Trust of Communication and Trust of Capability.

Simple language. But incredibly practical once you start thinking about trust through that lens.

Do people do what they say they’re going to do? Are conversations honest, open, and transparent? Do people feel their strengths are recognised and used properly? Those questions suddenly make trust much easier to talk about constructively because they move the conversation away from personality and towards behaviour.

And right now, I think a lot of organisations need those conversations. Too many of us still talk about trust like it's just something you either have or you don’t. But listening to Dennis and Michelle, trust feels much closer to fitness. Something that strengthens through repetition. Weakens through neglect. And requires conscious effort to maintain it every day.

Trust Gets Built In The Small Moments

One thing I kept thinking about throughout this conversation was how often we inside organisations, can overcomplicate culture work while underestimating everyday behaviour. Most people already know what trust feels like. You know when somebody genuinely listens. You know when somebody follows through. You know when somebody keeps you informed. You know when somebody creates space for you to contribute honestly.

And equally, you know when those things disappear.

That’s why I liked the Reinas’ focus on habits so much. Not big, grand gestures. Not playing to crowd. Just the focus on creating good habits. Repeated behaviours that slowly shape the emotional atmosphere people work inside every day.

Dennis shared a story in the episode about bringing a flip chart on a family holiday to clarify expectations. Which sounds deeply ridiculous on paper. But underneath it was a really important point. Clarity builds trust. Assumption rarely does. And how often are we all making assumptions. Isn't it always better to know?

A huge amount of friction inside organisations comes from people operating with completely different expectations while assuming everyone sees things the same way. Then disappointment arrives later and can get misinterpreted as bad intent, or blown out of all proportion.

High-Trust Cultures Don’t Happen Accidentally

This conversation made me reflect on how many organisations still treat trust as a hopeful outcome, rather than a leadership priority or responsibility. As if trust should somehow emerge automatically from hiring good people.

But high-trust environments are usually incredibly intentional. The language leaders use matters. The consistency of behaviour matters. The openness of communication matters. How mistakes are handled matters. How disagreements are handled matters. How visible and consistent leadership behaviour is matters.

And people notice all of it.

I felt one of the strongest sections of this episode was Michelle describing a financial services organisation that embedded trust-building into leadership practice over several years. Through intentional behaviour.

Leaders teaching trust-building to others. Leaders opening conversations. Leaders sharing data transparently with those who might not always see that level of information. Leaders modelling real accountability themselves, including fessing up to mistakes, publically.

That part stayed with me because when you've experienced those things, you can tell the difference between organisations that talk about culture and those that actually operationalise it.

Measuring Trust Changes The Quality Of Conversations

I also found the assessment side of this conversation genuinely interesting. It's becoming a bit of a hot topic at the moment. Whilst a lot of leaders are waking up to the importance of trust and its link to performance, many are left wondering how it can be measured, because it feels a little too human, too emotional, too nuanced.

But Dennis and Michelle aren’t trying to reduce trust to data points. They’re trying to create awareness. And there’s a big difference between those two things. Because once people have common language around trust and visibility around behaviour, conversations are given the chance to be more useful and frank, and less vague, defensive, awkward and political.

That feels especially important right now because many workplaces are carrying around low-level relational fatigue without really acknowledging it openly. People are tired. Cynical. Overloaded. Guarded. Having a trust conversation creates a way to surface some of that constructively before disengagement hardens into a problem culture.

Trust Is Built Long Before It’s Tested

I guess the thing I probably keep coming back to most after both parts of this conversation is how easy it is to only think about trust when something breaks. Which is still taking it for granted most of the time. But trust is being built long before those moments arrive. In ordinary conversations. In the consistency of our behaviour. In the quality of our communication. In how well we listen. In closing the gap between what we say and what we actually do. And whether people still feel respected when the pressure's on.

That’s why trust-building feels much less like it has to be more of an intentional practice, for all of us. Something that's lived and upheld as important. Something that's readily demonstrated by everyone, but particularly leadership. And something that's reinforced repeatedly over time. Moment by moment. Interaction by interaction. Day by day.

The Full Part 2 Transcript - Returning To The Conversation And Why Part 2 Gets Practical

[Andy Goram] (0:00 - 2:08)

Hi, Andy here. You're listening to part two of my conversation with Drs. Dennis and Michelle Reina on the art of trust building. In part one, we explored why trust matters more than ever.

And today in this episode, we get practical. So let's get cracking. Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the podcast that explores how to build stickier, competition-smashing, consistently successful organizations from the inside out.

I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help you turn the lights on behind the eyes of your people, light the fires within them, and help more of us lead successful, fulfilling work lives. This podcast is for anyone who believes that's worth going after and is curious about what really drives people, culture, and performance. Each episode we dive into the ideas and conversations that help create what I call stickier businesses, places where people thrive and love to work, and where customers stay, recommend you, and love what you do and why you do it.

So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on. Previously on Sticky from the Inside, Dennis and Michelle Reina are the authors of Trust and Betrayal in the Workplace and the new book, The Art of Trust Building, and are widely, and I mean wildly, recognized as pioneers in this space, focused not just on what trust is, but what it actually looks like in practice between us. And recently, they've been part of conversations with some incredibly senior leaders around the globe, hearing firsthand about the pace of change, the constant disruption, and the evolving role of AI, and what all of that is doing to trust between people.

[Michelle Reina] (2:09 - 2:44)

So, what Dennis and I are noticing that's rising to the top is this growing awareness among leaders that in order to grow our business, we have got to help our people grow as human beings. And they're recognizing how essential it is that there be attention to human connection, and that requires a focused intention around trust.

[Dennis Reina] (2:44 - 3:24)

Ninety percent of the ways that trusts are broken, it's not the big, bad, dark, nasty betrayals. There's a minor, unintentional accumulation of minor things. Trust building is a transformative process that involves intentional process of cultivating, strengthening, and sustaining trust through deliberate actions, authentic communication, and shared vulnerability.

You have to earn trust. Trust is earned step-by-step, moment-by-moment, every interaction, and it's a daily discipline.

Introducing The 3Cs Of Trust Building

[Andy Goram] (3:24 - 3:57)

I am a simple person, which is why I think I would love to move on to what I consider to be a really practical lens to explain trust that you have within the book around the three Cs associated with trust around character, around communication, around capability. Firstly, why that model? Where does it really come from?

When did you land on it, and can you unpack it for us, and just sort of how it all works together?

[Dennis Reina] (3:58 - 8:08)

Yeah, so I'll take a crack at that. When we first started the work and the research, I mean, well, first, I literally did my doctoral dissertation on the impact of trust in work teams, and I learned a lot there after seven years and getting my master's and our doctorates, but what I realized is there was so much more to learn. When we started to talk with leaders and we started to...

We literally interviewed 768 leaders in 19 different industries over a four-year period for this first book on trust and betrayal in the workplace, and we ended up seeing that there were certain patterns because we would ask people what their definition of trust was. Well, immediately, they would go into betrayal, and then once we were able to get them back into telling us how they got betrayed, et cetera, once we were able to steer them back into what the question originally was, we found that these three buckets came into trust of character. We do what we say we're going to do, and that became the starting point, and it is.

It's the starting point of any relationship personally, professionally, business-wise, et cetera. Do people do what they say they're going to do? Do they honor their commitments?

First of all, are they clear on their intentions and their expectations? Do they deliver as promised? Are they consistent in their behavior?

Those were the behaviors that we found that correlated to that dimension of trust. Then we looked at... Well, because literally, if you ask 10 different people, they're going to give you 10 different definitions of trust.

Oh, well, trust is honesty. No, trust is delivering as promised. No, trust is acknowledging the skill.

Well, the truth is it's all of those things. It's all three dimensions. Trust in communication is how we speak with one another.

Are we transparent? Are we open and honest? Do we share information that people need to know to do their jobs?

Do we speak truthfully, and do we admit mistakes? Is it even safe enough to admit mistakes? In low-trust environments, it's rarely safe enough to admit versus a high-trust one.

Do we listen to one another and give each other honest and objective feedback to help them literally learn and grow? Then, of course, trust of capability is the third dimension, is how we acknowledge and leverage the skills of one another in service to our customers and our clients or those who we are charged to serve. Do we have the skills that are needed to do that?

Are we able to make decisions, or do they have to be passed up to the boss man, whatever? Do we involve one another in the decisions that affect their jobs and their lives? Do we help people learn and grow?

The essence is those three are the dimensions of trust. We found that they're interrelated. People often ask us, well, can you have one without the other?

Yes, but not for long. When somebody says, I don't trust you, what does that mean? Does that mean my character, which is like, whoa, or does that mean how we speak with one another and what I'm saying and sharing information, or is that my capability?

Capability is the easiest one because you can teach that. You can help people learn and grow into that one. The trust of character, that's the starting point.

The reason why it's the starting point is because that's where it all begins. That's where the relationship begins.

Why The 3Cs Create Shared Language Around Trust

[Michelle Reina] (8:08 - 8:33)

Taking a step backwards, I'm going to step back a little bit into the research that Dennis was talking about because there's something that was very profound during that period of time. We get these doctoral dissertations and we both studied trust within them, but we had more questions than answers. Over a four-year period of time, we did extensive research, interviews and focus groups, et cetera.

[Dennis Reina] (8:33 - 8:36)

This was after our doctorate research.

[Michelle Reina] (8:36 - 11:15)

What we found, Andy, is that trust is extremely complex. It is emotionally provocative. As Dennis mentioned, it means different things to different people, but throughout the research and the analysis and the findings and the themes and the patterns, we did discover those three elements of trust that we gave language to, trust of character, trust of communication, trust of capability.

What we learned through that research is what people most needed was some common handlebars. Those three dimensions of trust are intended to give us a tool and a reference point to raise our awareness. The dimensions of trust give us a common language and a shared understanding to do something very important, which is to talk about trust-related issues constructively because through that dialogue and coming to more fully understand those three dimensions and their behaviors, we then can take action to grow and develop, to strengthen trust, but to maintain it and to sustain it.

The three dimensions of trust give that meaning and that language, and they give the behavioral framework that we can talk and we can act. The key is consistently. When we're practicing those three dimensions and their behaviors consistently, we are growing in trust.

Today in our world, trust of character is something that needs to be revisited again and again and again because expectations are constantly changing. What's needed is shifting and changing, so those behaviors, keeping them front and center, help people arrive at meaning. Trust of communication, oh my goodness, we all need to be able to talk about mistakes that we're making, things where we're tripping up, telling the truth about our vulnerabilities and areas that we're wrestling, etc., etc., but the point I wanted to make for those who tune in and have the benefit to listen to our conversation is the three dimensions give us the behavioral blueprint and they give us that framework to raise our awareness, to talk with one another, and to help one another take action.

Turning Trust-Building Behaviours Into Habit

[Andy Goram] (11:16 - 12:27)

And that's what I really love about it because, for me, there's the framework, coupled with consistency, which then breeds habit, right? And we need the habit to kind of stick so that we can move some stuff on. And I think, for me, the bit that connected for me reading the book was that previously, probably a long time ago, one of the first ways I was introduced to trust, like a lot of people, was something as simple as the trust equation and the simple sort of credibility, reliability, intimacy over self-interest, right?

But when you think about that, that's great. Okay, that's where it comes from, maybe, or an element where it comes from, but how? And I think this is where the three Cs, and being really quite practical and specific about, hey, these are the behaviors that will accentuate character, will breed decent communication, will grow capability in yourself and others.

And I think that self and others is such a common theme coming through here. That's why I really like the practical nature of it because it's breaking it down into simple, observable, repeatable behaviors.

[Michelle Reina] (12:27 - 13:16)

I was taken back to that excitement you and I had a couple of weeks ago when we had that wonderful chat and we got so excited about this part. What I experienced from you is that you began to see, you know, this part about it becomes habit. It becomes habit.

And as it becomes habit, what that means is that language of those three dimensions, those behaviors that bring those three dimensions to life are not conceptual. They're actionable. They're practical.

And so when they're habit forming, they just become a part of our life, right, Andy? And you and I had a really fun conversation about, oh my gosh, you know, expectations. Maybe we need to manage our expectations when we're going on a holiday.

You were getting ready to go on a holiday. So how did you manage that one?

[Andy Goram] (13:18 - 13:19)

Badly, Michelle, badly.

Expectations, Clarity And The Family Vacation Story

[Dennis Reina] (13:19 - 15:10)

I actually had a, I have a quick story about that. So years ago, we would all go on a family vacation. And what was interesting was my mother at the time had an idea of, oh, we're going to have every meal together.

We're going to, it's just like old times, you know, I come from a family of seven. So there was a lot of mouths, you know, and she, she was saying, oh, I get to cook and everything. And we're going to have, eat every meal together, and we're going to do everything together.

And so I said, I think we need to get our expectations clear here. And I literally brought a flip chart on vacation and a marker. And I said, okay, mom, that was, you know, your expectations are such.

Now let's go down the line and let's capture everyone's, well, every single one person's expectation, my older brother, my younger brother, my sisters, whatever, they were all literally different, you know? And I mean, what do you mean about every meal together and every, doing everything? Are you kidding?

You know, and we have a big family, right? But you know what? We mapped out the items and the areas, you know, the items that we would do together and those that we would have apart.

And so, and that was the best family vacation. We went to the Outer Banks actually that summer, and that was the best family vacation we've ever had. Because, you know, we were clear that, okay, so-and-so is going off here today, or who wants to go boating or who wants to go fishing?

And, and it was clear rather than everybody trying to do everything, you know, like my mother at all to, no, it wasn't going to happen.

[Andy Goram] (15:10 - 15:43)

As humans, we function great with direction and certainty, right? Most of us aren't great with vagueness and wobbliness, you know, some better than others, but having a clearer picture, but also having the conditions to be able to have that conversation as a leader, the mom, whoever, the guy with the flip chart on holiday. I mean, let's not go into that in much detail, but that, that person responsible for creating the conditions to have a conversation, to get, to get into some stuff.

That's the, that's the important stuff, right?

Measuring Trust And Creating Awareness

[Dennis Reina] (15:43 - 16:20)

And the clarity, absolutely. And to give people a starting point in this book, we literally offer a starting point. We offer a free assessment.

The individual trust scale comes with the book, okay? And it literally helps people have a starting point to measure those three dimensions on how they are practicing on a habit or a habitual level. How are they practicing those each and every day?

Because as we know, trust building is a daily discipline. Absolutely.

[Andy Goram] (16:20 - 17:25)

I know. I mean, I've taken the test, I've taken the test and, um, and I think I did pretty good, but, um, I've got, I mean, the third category, I mean, practicing, I'm not in expanding, but I, I found it a really interesting test. And what I wanted to talk to you guys about, and this links, I get back full circle to, uh, maybe our exchange of the day on LinkedIn, Dennis, we were connecting on, on Joe Coxhill's post around the, the summit that she was at.

And the question that was coming up from that audience at the time about, look, we recognize trust is important. The S through internal communication is really important, but also through actions and leadership. And it's a, it's a critical fundamental layer of building a successful culture, but how do we manage it?

How do we measure it? And, um, this is a question that was coming up time and time again. And I've sort of said to people on LinkedIn, well, I'm talking to the guys who know how to do that.

And that's you guys. So just talk us through that assessment and the difference between the individual stuff and how it works in organizations and, and what the results that you find from, from your assessment.

[Michelle Reina] (17:25 - 18:30)

Well, it's, I love that question. You know, we've, we've been, uh, we began, so this is actually an interesting little story, Andy, over 30 years ago. And it's a story of how a moment in time, a moment in time can change the trajectory of time.

So I'm going back over 30 years ago when Dennis and I, uh, you know, were coming out of that four-year period of rigorous research and, and as an outgrowth of that research, we created a model that's called the trust and betrayal model, a multi-faceted model of trust. And one, one facet of it is the three dimensions. So we were, we were working with a group of executives.

It was a global team and we were, uh, you know, doing a strategy session. And during that period of time, we, we put up on the wall, a flip chart paper. So Andy, I hope you won't think less of me, but I want you to know that at that time, PowerPoint was like brand new in the world.

It was like, we were all not using PowerPoint. We were doing overhead slides.

[Andy Goram] (18:31 - 18:38)

Mate, I, listen, I know I look so very young, but I was, I was an overhead projector guy at the start as well. Don't you worry about that.

Why Trust Data Creates Better Conversations

[Michelle Reina] (18:39 - 21:57)

So we're in a room with these group of senior leaders, then we have a flip chart and we've got these three dimensions, you know, the different colors of behaviors, all that kind of stuff. It was just really great dialogue about it. Our first book hadn't even come out yet.

And, um, then during a break, you know, the classic, everybody's hanging around the dessert bar at the coffee, you know, drinking, chatting, and this one SVP, uh, was getting really into the work. And so we were all, you know, kind of doing stuff. And he said, you know, could you guys measure this?

If there's any way you could measure this? Oh my God, this would be so helpful for teams. So we hadn't even thought about that yet.

Well, we went right back to work and long story short, six months later, we had developed our very first assessment. So we actually have created a suite. We have an assessment that measures trust within teams, a 360 that helps leaders measure their own trustworthiness, and then an assessment that measures trust within organizations.

So over the years, what, what these assessments have done is given teams and leaders a starting point. It takes those three dimensions of trust, but it helps us to really know how are we practicing them today? Where are we the most consistent today?

Where are we a little bit vulnerable? You know, where do we struggle? The value of that is it, it helps people to individually and collectively focus, kind of focus in a hone in on where, you know, where do we have the greatest opportunity of trust building is judgment free.

So this is not evaluative. There's no judgment on where are you good or where are you bad and where are you strong and where are you weak? No, it's just, where are you at?

What are you doing already that is contributing to high trust? And where do we struggle? You know, where do we struggle?

Because when trust is a little bit more compromised, it's, it's a struggle point. But the beautiful thing about having data, it gives us objectivity. It gives us a starting point.

We can focus our attention intentionally. So with the benefit of, of those 30 plus years and the experience of seeing the shifts that that has contributed, the difference that it's made, the business results is generated. Dennis and I, when we were working on the art of trust building, we said, you know, how can we bring this to the reader?

Because we want this book to be practical. We want this book to be actionable. We wrote it to give people handlebars.

We wrote it to give them actionable, practical steps they can take. We said to each other, how can we help them focus? And we thought, you know, let's bring in a self-assessment.

So we drew upon all that research and we created the individual trust scale and we invite people. We hope people will take it right out of the starting gate like you did. So, you know, cause I remember when we got together, you said, hi, Michelle.

Hi, Andy. We had a really great, you know, we were like three minutes and I took some assessment. I'm practicing.

Yeah.

[Andy Goram] (21:58 - 23:20)

I'm so needy. Uh, I just needed to sort of like show that I did take interest in what you'd sent me. I think it's a fascinating assessment, actually.

It really does make, make you think. And I think this is the thing for organizations. It's a start of a conversation.

It's the start of a conversation that may have been taken for granted or push, push to the side or had no, have no worth. And for me, it's, it's akin to the sort of Dr. Amy Edmondson's work on like psychological safety, right? That, that whole fearless organization assessment, it's starting conversations about creating the right environments, right?

And that's how people can move forward. I think your assessment is exactly the same place here. So I, I was really excited yesterday when that LinkedIn thing popped off and I'm saying yesterday, this is going live in like two weeks, but a couple of weeks ago, guys, or whatever it was, how do we measure trust?

Well, we're talking to the guys right now who, who are doing it. And I'd love if you can to share some insights or, or a story of, of an organization that's, that's used the assessment and what's happened. Like, have you got a really lovely case study of, of an organization that's gone through that assessment and then gone, wow, we we've seen some core things that we need to change and how they've gone about kind of making improvements and what's been the end game.

[Dennis Reina] (23:21 - 25:31)

Before we answer that question, I just wanted to point out that the suite of assessments, Andy, we literally now have five that measure at the individual, the leader 360, the team organization. We even have a customer trust scale. They have gone through years and years of rigorous testing research and practice.

They are statistically valid and reliable. So these aren't just, you know, random questions that we thought of. These have been tested again and again and again, and have been you know, the you know, the test of time, but also the tests of our statisticians.

Literally the first statistician that we had was Dr. Ray Newton, who was our research faculty in Santa Barbara. And he was our research faculty until he retired a number of years. And then we have another statistician, Harvard trained one in the Boston area.

Anyway, so they've gone through a lot of testing and retesting to really make sure that these were measuring exactly what they were purported to measure. And in fact, our statisticians even said, I am so amazed at how correlated your questions are with one another, and that they literally measure the very thing that we're measuring, whether it be at the individual team, leadership, trust, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, to the point about the individual trust scale, while it takes five minutes, right, Andy?

You get a very robust 11, 12 page feedback report that not only gives you a sense and explains each and every one of the behaviors of where you're at, but also gives you very forward thinking coaching tips to take you to that next level.

[Andy Goram] (25:32 - 26:32)

And it's no surprise to me, I'm talking to two doctors. I'm no surprise to me that there's loads of rigor behind this sort of stuff. It's not like I'm talking to two Johnny Gahan ladies on the street going, hey, I've got an idea about trust.

What do you reckon? I've written it on the back of this fag packet. Let's do it.

I perhaps take this for granted, right? But having read the book, having taken the test, I can see the amount of diligence and rigor that's through there, which is why I think it's a great thing. And I'm so delighted you're on here talking about it, because I can see the sort of conversations that will have to pop up in organizations if you go through that sort of testing, because the questions that are being asked, the responses and feedback that you get from it, it cannot help but to stimulate for either in a great way to validate what we're doing.

Let's do more of that, because I think sometimes the validation stuff is missed and forgotten. We're so focused on the things that are missing. But then it also will highlight areas for development, right?

[Michelle Reina] (26:32 - 34:39)

Yes. I think, Andy, you know, and then I want to come back to your question, which I thought was a brilliant, brilliant question. Is it for dose size an integrity issue?

Building Developmental Energy Through Trust Assessments

We can't just research and write and teach and advise and support and coach and consult trust. We actually have to live it ourselves. And so if we're bringing to the world assessments, we have to ensure that it's data people can trust, that they can trust this is the real deal.

Hence the commitment we've made to the rigor and the psychometric performance of the assessments. When we consider bringing them into the world and in the life of an organization, you are a beautiful model in our dialogue today that what your individual trust scale did, what my observation is that lit a fire in you. You were excited.

I mean, you were like, like on fire as I took assessment, Michelle. Oh, and this is what I saw. And then at one point in time you said to me, well, you know, I need to get better on this.

I, I was only here and I want to be here. And I remember saying, Andy, wherever you are, it's brilliant. This is not about where are you the best?

So we had a really wonderful conversation. So I'm going to share one quick story as quickly as I can. Sure.

Sure. When I chatted a little bit ago about a business unit that was 1500 people and then moved to 4,000 people, that business unit began four years earlier to that point in time. They're a part of a very large global financial services organization.

They were a newly developed business unit, new suites of products, a relative unknown in the marketplace, were there as a strategic growth initiative to this organization to expand into the marketplace. So unknown, not, not a whole lot of marketplace reputation. And at that point in time, not a top revenue generator and not a big profitable arm.

So they brought in a new business unit, CEO leader who have lots of experience in the industry. And his job was to build this business. Well, three months in, he began to make an observation that there was sort of like really cool people and people that were really excited and jazzed about the products and, you know, kind of a little on fire about, oh my God, let's go, let's go.

We have this opportunity. We want to do our stuff. We want to grow in this yet.

What the CEO noticed was that there were lots of silos and those silos had walls and within each silo, people felt pretty good about themselves and pretty good about their, their view and their knowledge. But there was not the working across the enterprise. People stayed within boundaries rather than across boundaries.

So this leader, we were very privileged, asked us to join him. We had worked with him in another organization and he knew that what he had to do was bring this culture together. He knew what he needed to do was bring down these boundaries and begin to open up collaboration.

So long story short, the first order of business was the starting point assessment, an organizational trust assessment. Now, when an organization takes an assessment and leaders are there in a room and they're going to be the recipients of that assessment, before Dennis and I begin giving them data, we want to give them some foundational awareness and foundational understanding. So they got tuned into, you know, the construct of trust building.

They did some discovery and arrived at some meaning and, you know, and got to know these three dimensions of trust and their behavior. So it's like a really half day, very highly dynamic period of time. And then they received their data and we took them through a process of helping them arrive at insights from this data.

But through that process of feedback, we help them go through their own process and discernment. So rather than Dennis and I saying, hey gang, we're the experts here. And this is where we suggest you focus your developmental energy.

We took them through their own process of discovery and supported them to collaborate with one another. And the leadership team honed in on what they perceived to be the behaviors they thought would give them the strongest developmental edge. Now, from that point forward, you know that people often wonder what's going to happen with an assessment.

Leaders Becoming Teachers Of Trust

So the commitment the leadership team made was they were going to bring those results throughout the organization. Dennis and I did not bring those results ourselves. We tooled those leadership, the leadership team up to bring those results.

But we also tooled them up to begin teaching trust to their people. So over a progressive period of three years, Andy, what began as an assessment emerged as a trust-building journey. And there were leadership trust assessments and team trust assessments.

But the core ingredient that unfolded is leaders were supported to grow their own trustworthiness, yet they took what they learned and they brought it to their people. They were the teachers of trust-building. They were the ones that brought insights and tools and skills and techniques to their people.

So that's where transformation began to occur. The leaders didn't talk about trust. They didn't send people to a training program.

They lived it. They modeled it. They demonstrated.

They opened the door for those conversations. They would bring the data into the room and let's talk about what we're seeing and what we're discovering. So trust became a part of the fabric of life within the organization.

Over a three-year period of time, they became an industry leader in the marketplace and the services and products they delivered. They became the fastest growing, most profitable business unit within their organization. Within a four-year period of time, they bought two additional businesses.

They began to grow. Revenue is driving up. Proportionally, profitability is strengthening, etc., etc., etc. So trust-building transformed the culture. The culture drove the growth of that business in unprecedented ways. So, you know, a couple of key points from that story is we can never underestimate the power of what happens when leaders take their own growth in their hands and bring it to their people.

And, you know, that, that aspect of you, you were so excited about the self-assessment and the conversation that unfolded. And we can imagine what happens, Andy, when that's going throughout an organization and everybody's supported to have those kinds of conversations. That's just one story that is a representative example of what happens.

[Andy Goram] (34:40 - 37:09)

Absolutely. And various little vignettes and stories are contained in the book as well to kind of accentuate some of the behaviors and things that people are facing in. And I think, you know, the great part of that story for me is the transference of ownership for this stuff going forward, rather than just going on a course or just the assessment thing on its own.

Leadership, management have to buy into this stuff and make it an everyday part of work. Otherwise, it's another fad. It's not a habit.

There's no real connection to it. Everybody knows when you're presenting somebody else's work or somebody else's kind of feelings, that ownership thing, I think, is an absolute massive multiplier when it comes to the effectiveness of these things. And anybody listening going, well, how?

Well, the answers are all in the book, gang, really. So there's so much practical stuff in this book to go through. I can guarantee if you can get hold of it, the answers are all there on all the pages about what you've got to do.

Then it comes down to, well, I think the book will give you some awareness. You then have a choice to make about what you do with it. The definite thing here is around, you've got to be intentional in those actions.

And like Michelle and I were saying before, you've got to then be consistent and make a habit out of it, right? That's got to be the thing that runs through this. So I will absolutely put a link to this book in the show notes and you can see for yourselves, gang.

Now, the only other thing I really want to talk about, and I say the only other thing, that's a lie. There are many other things I want to talk about, but I'm conscious you have lives other than sitting in chairs talking to me. I would be ridiculous if I didn't talk to you about the sort of slightly darker side when it comes to trust and the previous works, particularly around healing and repairing trust when it goes wrong.

And we won't be able to do it justice maybe in the time that we have left, but I'm really interested to understand from your perspective about what you see when trust breaks down and the kind of common pitfalls we fall into when we're trying to sort of either understand that or even repair it and do it badly. And what should we be doing? Are you able to give us a highlighted view of the whole issue of repairing and healing trust when it's been broken?

Well, I'll take a crack at that, Andy. You've been successful so far in taking cracks at stuff, Dennis. So you go ahead, my friend.

I love it.

Repairing Trust And Rebuilding Relationships

[Dennis Reina] (37:10 - 39:36)

Well, thank you. First of all, I just want to tell the listening audience that this model, the Seven Steps for Healing to Rebuild Trust, didn't come from our academic experience. It actually came from very much a painful divorce long before I met Michelle, a very painful divorce that I went through over 40 years ago.

And what I learned through my own coaching that I was receiving, my own counseling coaching, et cetera, that there are repeatable steps that I went through that just maybe, just maybe they might have some value for others. And we, of course, have been applying this model and framework, not just at the individual level, but at the leader level, the team level, the whole organizational level. And what's absolutely critical, first and foremost, is that when trust breaks, it's viewed often as a loss.

And people experience this disappointment, the hurt, the letdown, the anger, the withdrawal, the caution. And what we saw when people feel hurt, let down, disappointed, and betrayed is that it not only is somewhat of a loss, but people begin to question. They begin to not only just question others, but the biggest cost, the biggest cost is that they begin to question themselves.

Wow, am I not the man I thought I was? Am I not the father, the husband, or whatever, or the leader that I thought I was? And they literally begin to question.

And so often, leaders will tend to move too quickly. And, well, let's put this behind us. But they need to honor people's feelings.

So they need to, first and foremost, acknowledge what's so, what happened, and the impact on the people. And literally allow those feelings to surface, because people's feelings don't go away. And if they are not fully vetted, or they are not fully heard, or they are not fully listened to, they go underground.

And that's when they become toxic. That's when they become lethal. That's when they become dangerous, okay?

[Michelle Reina] (39:37 - 42:03)

That's when the victim shows up, Andy, and can stay around for a really good, long time. Because when there is, as Dennis says, when trust has been broken, either in a New York minute with something really big, but most time in organizational settings in particular, as well as our personal, it just unravels. And quite often, as you had mentioned a while ago, most of the time it's unintentional, yet we all feel it.

So in the healing process, there is that importance of honoring ourselves. So we're observing and acknowledging what has happened, and what was the impact, what was lost, what were the consequences, what did not occur that I thought would occur. It might have been a promotional opportunity.

It might have been a relationship. It might have been the loss of an opportunity to receive some recognition, because somebody stole my work and took credit for my efforts. And there's feelings and there's emotions that come along with that.

But what's essential is that we use those feelings and emotions as a stepping stone. So the first step of those seven steps is observing and acknowledging what's happened, give ourselves permission to have those feelings and emotions, but none of us can go it alone. We need to give ourselves support, and we need to support one another.

We may take some responsibility to gain support from a colleague or a friend or a coach or our boss or a co-worker in the personal space of our life. It may be a family member, or we may turn to a therapist. But in a workplace environment, leaders really do need to ensure that they're supporting themselves to get support, and they're giving support to their people.

Because what's essential to the process of healing and rebuilding trust is that fourth step where we reframe that experience, and that's where compassion is our friend. We always need to be willing to look at the bigger picture. What were the extenuating circumstances?

What space might that person have been in that contributed to what I experienced? Not excusing, not blowing away, not sweeping it under the rug, but just looking at the reframing. What is here for me to learn?

What is here for me to discover? And then step five is we need to take some responsibility. We may not have responsibility for what happened, but we have responsibility for how we're going to move forward.

[Dennis Reina] (42:03 - 43:26)

How we choose to respond. We may not have responsibility for what happened to us. We always, always, always have responsibility for how we choose to respond.

And what's mine to own and what's not mine to own. And so that's very critical right there. And that could be whether it be an apology, whether it be making amends where possible, clarifying what will change, what will stay the same, but demonstrating behavior over time.

Because from there, from step five, taking responsibility, then we can forgive. First and foremost, we need to forgive ourselves. We need to forgive that we might have put ourselves in that situation, that betrayal, or that breach, or that breakdown, or that circumstance happened in the first place.

We may or may not immediately forgive the other persons that may have perpetrated against us, but we never, ever, ever want to forget the lessons learned. And then we are able to let go and move on and letting go and move on. Step seven is not about condoning what happened, but it accepting it without blame.

[Andy Goram] (43:27 - 44:19)

I mean, it feels like another episode in itself, to give that proper justice, but just listening to the seven steps. Again, I think another full circle moment in this conversation in that these things I think around trust can be taken for granted. We're humans.

We understand and communicate each other. This stuff should be easy and simple. It's not, it's complex.

It's taken for granted. And something like the seven steps, you took all of those steps in isolation. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But how intentional is the behavior that we take those steps, and we take them in the right chronology, and we do the diligence in each of those steps. And then we come out of that situation properly being able to move on and let go, other than having to go back around the circle again, because we haven't covered it all off properly.

[Dennis Reina] (44:19 - 45:25)

Totally, totally. Because while we mentioned seven steps in a linear fashion, they don't happen in a linear fashion. We may be thinking we're in step number five, take responsibility.

And all of a sudden the song may come on the radio and that triggers a whole set of feelings and emotions, et cetera. Or we may have to cycle through again and again, depending upon the immensity and the size of the breach or the breakdown or the betrayal. We may cycle through them numerous times, or we may slide back and forth and go around.

And you might be in steps one and two, and you're thinking you're in four and five, and then you slide back to one and two again, acknowledging what happened and allowing those feelings to surface. Because those feelings don't go away on their own. They need to be given voice, they need to be listened to, and they need to be let go of.

But they don't happen automatically, and you don't do it alone.

Why Trust-Building Is A Lifelong Leadership Discipline

[Andy Goram] (45:26 - 46:45)

And I think the thing that people need to remember in all this stuff is I believe these are some fundamental building blocks to performance. This is why this stuff is not pink, fluffy, nice to have stuff. We have stuff to do.

As people say, we've got to get some shit done. And I think at the end of the day, this connection piece, the trust element, are fundamental elements to allowing real performance, performance of individuals, performance of teams, and ultimately performance of organizations. I don't really think it can be underplayed.

I really, really hope that I've given you a chance to do justice to your amazing work on trust today. In a very poor attempt to try and summarize some of the stuff we've talked about today, I think we finally got to the bit in the show I like to call sticky notes, right, which is I'm going to ask the ridiculous task to sort of leave the audience with three real pearls of wisdom that we could fit on three little sticky notes and stick around our screens to remind ourselves about these things every day.

So if we're thinking about building trust effectively, what between you would be those three sticky notes that you'd like to leave behind today?

[Michelle Reina] (46:46 - 47:05)

I'd say the first one is trust begins with you. Trust begins with you. I can't emphasize enough how much I hope people will gain that.

Trust begins with you. We all need it. We all want it.

We all deserve it. And we can have it. It begins with us.

[Dennis Reina] (47:06 - 47:28)

Love it. Number two, practice trust as a daily discipline, right? As three Cs and the behaviors that come with the three dimensions, you know, every interaction is an opportunity to either build trust or to erode it.

And so it's literally and figuratively a daily discipline. And the final one.

[Michelle Reina] (47:28 - 47:52)

When you experience trust being vulnerable, it's your opportunity to give that your attention to actually heal and repair it and rebuild it. And it's the greatest gift that we can actually give to ourselves because none of us wants to be a victim. Andy, we all want to be healthy and whole.

[Andy Goram] (47:53 - 48:21)

Amen to that. Amen to that, my friends. Well, what do I say?

I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting you both and getting the chance to to talk to people who've written something that I've really connected with. And I thank you for being so very, very generous with your time and your insights. Before I let you go, where can people track you down?

Where should people look for you?

[Dennis Reina] (48:22 - 48:35)

Well, there's our website, www.ReinaTrustBuilding.com. And also for the assessment, which is in the book on the back page of the preface.

[Andy Goram] (48:36 - 48:44)

I've got the link. I will whack it in the show notes. No problem at all.

That's going to be there. And people can get the book everywhere, right?

[Michelle Reina] (48:44 - 48:48)

I mean, we can give you an email also in the notes, Andy.

[Andy Goram] (48:48 - 49:06)

Perfect. And you're on LinkedIn, right? You're both on LinkedIn.

People can track you down there. Wonderful. Wonderful.

Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute joy and pleasure.

And I wish you all the very, very best of stuff with your work. And I desperately hope this is not our last conversation.

[Michelle Reina] (49:06 - 49:11)

Oh, Andy, I will not let that happen because trust begins with me.

[Dennis Reina] (49:12 - 49:21)

Absolutely. Well, and Andy, we've got at least three more books that were on the docket. So we will definitely be coming back to you.

[Andy Goram] (49:21 - 49:22)

I would love that.

[Dennis Reina] (49:22 - 49:23)

Absolutely.

[Michelle Reina] (49:23 - 49:33)

It's been just a real joy. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful that we have connected and we shall continue.

It's just the beginning.

[Andy Goram] (49:33 - 49:37)

I look forward to that. Thank you so much. Well, listen, you both take care.

Thank you for coming on.

[Dennis Reina] (49:38 - 49:40)

All right. God bless. Take care. Be safe. Be well.

[Andy Goram] (49:41 - 50:26)

Cheers. Well, OK, everyone, that was Dr. Michelle and Dr. Dennis Reina. And the book is The Art of Trust Building.

If you'd like to find out anything about any of the topics that we've talked about today, please check out the show notes. So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.

If you have, please like, comment and subscribe. It really helps. I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast.

Until next time, thanks for listening.

Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.