Springing Forward: Why Resilient Leadership Lives in Everyday Relationships

Andy Goram (left) and Russell Harvey (right) discuss how the manager and employee relationship boosts resilience

Resilience has become one of the most talked-about and misunderstood ideas in modern work. Too often it’s framed as coping, pushing through, or learning to tolerate more pressure. In this episode of Sticky From The Inside, Andy Goram speak with Russell Harvey offers a very different perspective.

Russell defines resilience as springing forward with learning. It’s not about bouncing back to some imagined version of the past, nor is it about asking people to be endlessly tough. It’s an active, ongoing choice to pause, reflect, and learn from experience, especially when work feels uncertain or demanding.

Crucially, this conversation reframes resilience as a leadership issue, not an individual failing. As Andy and Russell explore, most people don’t experience work through strategy documents or wellbeing slogans. They experience it through their relationship with their manager. How that manager listens, responds, and supports them day-to-day shapes how pressure and change are felt.

Russell is clear that leaders aren’t responsible for their people’s happiness, but they do contribute to it. When managers create space for honest, grounded conversations, people are more likely to feel supported, hopeful, and capable of facing what’s in front of them.

The episode also challenges the rise of “toxic resilience” and “toxic positivity”. Russell introduces optimism as a leadership skill rooted in reality, the ability to acknowledge when things are hard, while also helping people see what’s still strong, possible, and within their control.

Ultimately, resilient leadership isn’t about having all the answers. It’s about removing blockages, nurturing teams, and taking responsibility for your own resilience so you can show up well for others. As this episode makes clear, resilience doesn’t live in policies, it lives in everyday manager relationships.

🎧 Listen to the full episode using the player below, to hear Russell unpack what resilient leadership really looks like in practice, or read the full transcript that follows.

Resilient Leadership Full Transcript

[Andy Goram] (0:10 - 4:07)

Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.

Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.

Pressure, burnout and why resilience gets misunderstood

Okay then, let me start today's show with an observation.

Right now I feel that a lot of us are trying to do the right thing in environments that are faster, noisier and perhaps more uncertain than they used to be. Change is constant, we're bored of hearing that, but pressure feels a bit higher and yet there's still this quiet expectation for some of us and especially for leaders that we should somehow have all the answers, be able to keep everybody steady and safe and yet eke out more productivity and at the same time make it all feel okay. And adding to that mix, we keep hearing these words burnout and resilience being muttered or headlined.

And sometimes these references are, I think, helpful. Sometimes it's really well-intentioned, but sometimes I think it lands as sort of, you should really be able to cope a bit more, push on through, not make a fuss and stop worrying about feeling pressured, it's just normal. And for me, that's where it starts to get a little uncomfortable because I think resilience as a topic done badly can sound like endurance or coping.

And that is not the same as learning, growing, feeling supported, especially when the world around us isn't exactly calm or predictable right now. So what I want to explore today is a very human take on this, no surprise, but one that puts performance and leadership, particularly the relationship between line managers and their teams, right at the centre of the conversation around resilience. Because for most of us, our experience of work, pressure and change is shaped far less by big lofty people strategies and idealisms and far more by how our manager shows up with us every day.

Now, to help me pick through all that lot, my guest today is Russell Harvey. Russell, who's often referred to as the resilience coach, has spent many years working with leaders and organizations, navigating uncertainty and change, but with a very clear line in the sand. Resilience shouldn't mean putting up with the unacceptable or asking people to be endlessly tough.

He's passionate about helping leaders and organizations build the conditions where people can learn, adapt and move forward, not bounce back to some imagined halcyon version of how things used to be. So today we're going to explore what resilient leadership really looks like, because when we remember work is still at its heart, a very human experience. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Russell, welcome to the show, my friend.

[Russell Harvey] (4:07 - 4:19)

Thank you, Andy. What a superb introduction. Absolutely brilliant.

You've just explained, you know, huge amounts of how I think and feel about the world. So thank you. Appreciate that.

I could just listen to that. Yes.

[Andy Goram] (4:19 - 4:19)

Right.

[Russell Harvey] (4:19 - 4:24)

I just literally want to say, right, so have you got that everybody right? Crack on. That's what it's about.

[Andy Goram] (4:26 - 4:59)

Listen, I am all ears, mate, when it comes to this topic and listening to what you've got to say. I know, I know this is, this is your passion. This is your sweet spot, right?

This is what you love to do. I'm very keen to understand your take on it. I love this concept that I've read about you, about this not bouncing back, but springing forward.

And I'm sure we'll dig into some of those things as we go forward. Before we dive headlong into the conversation, do me a favour, my friend, just give us a bit of a better introduction to you and where your focus is right now.

Introduction to Russell Harvey

[Russell Harvey] (5:00 - 6:05)

Yeah. So I think partially the way I was born, I've always been fascinated by human behaviour and why we do the things that we do and why we don't do the things that we do and what that's all about. That's just, uh, fascinates me all day, every day.

And I think, once again on reflections, it's like, I've always been on this in relation to work. I've always been on the search for something. And, you know, I didn't quite know what it was until it materialized.

And, partially it materialised a lot in my last permanent role, which is the co-op group, which led to the resilience coach being born. So I might come back to that at some stage, but it was essentially what I now know is what I was searching for is the right environment to thrive. Essentially the right environment for me to make my best, the right environment for me to be respected, but then actually the majority of the organization that was part of was also trying to do the same.

[Andy Goram] (6:05 - 6:06)

Yeah.

[Russell Harvey] (6:06 - 7:28)

You know, I realised that what I was searching for, you know, for a long time, people would say what you're searching for doesn't exist, Russell, stop it. Don't be stupid. You know, thankfully I have seen it happen, you know, uh, and been involved in some places of actually making it happen, which is really good.

And then an awful lot of a career of banging my head against a brick wall of like, oh, for goodness sake, you know, am I shouting into the void, but let's go where I can be heard. So, that culminates in, you know, focus right now is my purpose. One of the dimensions of being resilient is having a purpose.

So my purpose starting in 2026 is to be, championing businesses to be a force for good. And that is, as you mentioned in your introduction, that is all about every single line manager relationship everywhere. How can we make it as good as it can be in relation to what does it mean to be a resilient leader and you know, how to lead yourself and others well in a full on mad bonkers crazy world.

So, you know, from chairperson to CEO to a first time line manager, it's like, okay, let's be really clear about what you can do in your bit day by day, hour by hour. That when you ask people, how are you, they can give a decent answer. Yeah.

[Andy Goram] (7:28 - 8:03)

And I mean, that is a group, I mean, as purposes go, that's pretty full on, right? That, that in our, in our line of work, that, that is a, that's a quest, isn't it? But I think I can already tell, you know, when you're working on that quest, right?

When you get to kind of really be on the battlefield of these things, that's when it feels great, right? When you can see these things land, when you can see someone be positively affected by that, when you can see organizations click and get it and things kind of change, that's a wonderful thing to be part of, isn't it?

[Russell Harvey] (8:03 - 8:44)

It is, it is. And that positively affect, you might've, you know, picked up on it is that was my previous purpose for about seven years. Positively affect 100,000 people, you know, by the year 2025 and the middle of last year achieved it essentially, which was light bulb moments.

It's everywhere you go. People went from, uh, this is God, this is hard work to, aha, it doesn't have to be like this and I can actually do something about it. So yeah, it is, you know, it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

And why don't you want to, why wouldn't you want to wake up each day and try and look for warm and fuzzy feelings?

[Andy Goram] (8:45 - 9:27)

Listen, I'm pretty much convinced that in this conversation, it's easier to be plenty more people thinking about, Hey, yes, we could do something. So let's have a look at that. I, I often make the mistake in these episodes of getting all excited and crashing into various areas and then going, Oh, halfway through.

Should we define some stuff first before we start? So I'm going to try and be good today. I'm going to try and be logical and structured, even though I'm excited.

, let's start right at the beginning for me. Cause I'm interested to hear your definitions of these things because I think it does get played all over the place in different ways. So for you define what resilience really is.

And then if you could, on top of that, just what resilient or resilient leadership looks like to those two things would be great to start with.

Defining resilience as springing forward with learning

[Russell Harvey] (9:27 - 9:52)

Absolutely. Yeah. So I define resilience as springing forward with learning.

So springing forward with learning. So, you know, wife's an English teacher. So that first one there, it's an actionable, regular thing that's happening.

So what that looks like is that alongside part of resilience is recovery, you know, from adverse events and adverse events don't always have to be negative.

[Andy Goram] (9:52 - 9:53)

Yeah.

[Russell Harvey] (9:53 - 11:05)

Like, Ooh, that was a bit challenging.  So there's a recovery, but springing forward with learning. One that looks like is that an individual makes a decision, makes a choice day to day from everything they're doing to pause.

And the pause is going for a walk, listen to a podcast, reading a book, talking to mates, staring at the wall and dribbling. You know, it's, it's a pause is loads of things. It's hundreds of things.

And in those pauses, in some way, shape or form, you're asking yourself three questions. What have I been doing behaviourally recently that has been serving me well brackets in relation to resilience? Second question is what have I been doing behaviourally recently that has not been serving me well, and how can I do more of the answers to the first question?

So springing forward learning, it's an actionable thing. So I'm encouraging anybody that ever, you know, listens to me or engages with me, is you're going to make a decision. You're going to make a choice for the rest of your life to build and grow and nurture your resilience wheel, which I think we'll probably come to at some stage.

So those questions are reflections against this resilience wheel, which is the answer to the question. How do I grow my resilience, Russell?

I go, there's a wheel. That's how you do it. Essentially.

[Andy Goram] (11:05 - 11:23)

I think that important point, if I've just made that agency associated with resilience is such an important thing for people to kind of get the notion of, because when we're in those sorts of situations, feeding a bit out of control, it's very easy to play the victim mode in this stuff, right?

[Russell Harvey] (11:24 - 12:57)

It really is. It really is. So heart resilience is our attitude.

So, you know, you, you have to work on different aspects of this wheel. They're all interconnected, you know, look at, reflect on what their aspect of the wheel, which is in a good place. Do more on that.

Start with a good first. And then the more you do that, all other aspects of the wheel will also grow as well. And then you'll become this more internally resilient individual, essentially.

The three things resilient leaders are responsible for

And that's, that's the principle.  And then resilient leaders, they do three things that they have to, while they understand that there are three things they are responsible for. So the first one is to delegate brilliantly to their people's strengths and remove blockages to their people performing.

That is the first one. The second one is to build, grow and nurture a resilient team. And the third one potentially should come first, but you know, the third is to make the decision and the choice to personally develop their resilience for the rest of their life.

That's what resilient leaders are responsible for. So when you wake up each day and go, are there all of these demands on me in this constantly changing, crazy world, it's like you, there's three things to focus on. You know, have I delegated brilliantly?

Am I removing the blockages? Am I growing and nurturing my resilient team? And what am I doing about me?

And that's what resilient leaders do. So it's the rule of three. So if you're ever confused about what am I supposed to do?

It's three things.

[Andy Goram] (12:58 - 14:23)

Love that. I mean, it sounds so simple. Russell, it sounds so simple, right?

When you, when you distil it down into those sort of three things, but that's a lovely little yardstick. And I guess maybe, maybe this links to where my head's at in terms of the first thing I'd like us to have a think about, because in multiple episodes, whenever we've talked about engagement of people, we've talked about, uh, thriving and performing, you know, numerous surveys get, get, get mentioned.  Gallup often gets kind of spewed up as, as an example.

And we've got this, this issue in the place of work, in the, well, the focus on relationships, you know, it's almost seems like a dirty word to think about relationships where we've got stuff to do. But for me, trust and relationship building is still absolute fundamental of any successful organization. And so when we're thinking about this topic of, of resilience, and we're talking about resilient leadership or leaders who show a good amount of resilience themselves, this relationship between the line manager and the employee.

Now in your experience, why does that relationship have such a disproportionate impact on how people deal with, are open to and experience pressure and change?

The disproportionate power of the line manager relationship

[Russell Harvey] (14:25 - 15:00)

So I think going back to that bit of that introduction is where some of the answer is,   , which is. Wait until we come to work to have a go at doing something and whether consciously or subconsciously it's, we, we will come to this job role to sort of go, I want to have a go at something and I want to feel supported whilst I'm doing it. I suspect there isn't anybody that's listening now, or we could go to 8 billion people around the world and went, if you have a job, would you just like to be supported to give it a good go?

I'm pretty damn sure everybody would go, yes, please.

[Andy Goram] (15:00 - 15:00)

Yeah.

[Russell Harvey] (15:01 - 15:19)

You know, and the person that immediately can do that is your line manager. That's that person. So according to the last two or three world happiness reports, one bit of a section in there that absolutely just, I might be confirmation bias here, Andy.

[Andy Goram] (15:20 - 15:23)

It wouldn't be the first time, mate. It wouldn't be the first time.

[Russell Harvey] (15:23 - 17:08)

Absolutely. Yes. I'm aware that exists, but in there, there was a section to go.

When you ask a human being, how are you? And they've got a job. It's an enormous amount of their ability to give a decent answer.

That question is down to their relationship to their line manager. I can't remember the exact figure, but let's just sort of say, can we be okay with 70%? You know, it's like people get, could date and research, but just to get it out.

There was an idea for anybody that's a line manager. It's like, okay. So whenever you ask any human being, how are you?

70% of that ability to go, yeah, I'm all right, actually. Yeah. I'm quite good.

You know? And in the, in the UK, yeah, we're actually quite good. It means I'm absolutely brilliant.

You know? Yes. All right.

Yeah. I'm okay. That's what we're after.

We're literally just somebody sort of go, yeah, all things been considered. Yeah, it's all right, actually. The line managing relationship has got a huge influence on that.

Now to be clear as a line manager, it's not to add any further pressure on your shoulders. You aren't responsible for somebody else's happiness. Okay.

The individual is. You contribute to it because if anybody here that's a line manager, they're also have their own boss. So I suspect that individual sort of goes, when I've got a challenge, I want to go and talk to somebody and I want that immediate person I talked to, to be my boss.

And I want to be able to have a decent conversation with them, which is going to go reasonably okay. That I'm going to feel listened to and heard and understood. And we're going to get somewhere with it, you know?

And even if we get to the point of like, yeah, we're agreed, this is horrible. And right now there's very little we can do about it. And I feel quite dissatisfied.

I'm also still okay with the conversation I've had with my line manager.

[Andy Goram] (17:08 - 17:57)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a big difference, isn't it?

Because in that conversation, even with dissatisfaction or disgruntlement or frustration going on, you're moving, I guess, from a cynical resigned thinking perspective, bugger all I can do about it. And sometimes that's okay, right? Letting go of that stuff rather than dwelling on it and losing a load of emotional and mental energy.

But I think if I think back to some of the best conversations I've had with previous line managers of my own, whether it be really, really difficult stuff or just niggles, I've come, I may have gone into those conversations feeling cynical or resigned, but more often than not, I've come out of those conversations feeling like, do you know what? Maybe there is something else I could try or do, or I'm not on my own here. I feel okay about it.

Optimism vs toxic positivity

[Russell Harvey] (17:57 - 18:34)

Absolutely. Yeah, this is it. Totally.

So, one of the things that's coming up for me right now is optimism. I talk a lot about the word optimism. So once again, to shift away from any idea of talking about resilience in a toxic way, so not a fan, toxic positivity or toxic resilience, optimism is grounded in reality.

So a skill set of line managers, optimism to have an optimistic conversation requires emotional intelligence and compassion and empathy. And whether you were born with these, the degree to which you're born with these or not, you can still do them.

[Andy Goram] (18:35 - 18:36)

Yeah. Yeah.

[Russell Harvey] (18:36 - 20:08)

Yeah. And you know, the whole, how you're born is how well you can naturally do them. Uh, as we all know.

So optimism is grounded in reality. So it's about being able to have a conversation that if the reality is, oh my God, this is horrible. This is truly the size and the scale of the challenge and what we've got to do.

Oh, blimey. You know, it's not good, you know? So that's the, to be able to have that conversation and not permanently go into the depths of despair.

Okay. But it is held well. Uh, but then what's also grounded in reality is right now.

What's good about us. What's right about us. What's our current levels of resilience.

What's our current skills and experience and behaviours and attitudes and knowledge and team and experiences. What that's the reality now. And it's imagine like you've got two buckets or,   , you know, holding up two hands when you can, talk more and you might not be able to do it in one conversation.

When you can talk more about the things about the reality of good, right. Resilience behaviours, et cetera, et cetera. Then the human being starts to feel hope and then they start to feel positive that they can face into it.

So exactly your comment he made around, you know, some of the conversations I went into with some of my line managers was, I might have gone in thinking there was nothing to do, but I came out thinking there was something I can do. So then you would have been on the receiving end of an optimistic conversation.

[Andy Goram] (20:09 - 20:38)

I love that. I love that. And I think that's something that people don't necessarily talk enough about.

And often when we think about having, or even referencing, uh, positive conversations, I will occasionally in workshops get, uh, accosted by people going, well, that's just fluff in it that, that I don't need that. I don't need you to do that. And, but I think your point here about the feeling of hope and what that does for a human being, I think that's the critical piece to try and understand here.

[Russell Harvey] (20:38 - 21:13)

It is, it is. And so I spent, keep moving away from positive conversations. I'm now in like optimistic conversation.

I get a bit pedantic about it, but whenever I hear it happening in a room, I'll just go optimistic conversations. It's like trying to, it's trying to, you know, it's a meme, isn't it? You need a culture.

I'll try and change those. Like, no, we're here to have optimistic conversations to try and then immediately shift away from any, over a covert culture of, you've just got to be positive. Yeah.

[Andy Goram] (21:13 - 22:43)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you use the word toxic already, we will talk, I think about some of that toxic, but toxic positive is just as bad.

I think that's why that reframe of optimism is great. What, what could we do? What is possible?

Not, Oh, look, we can, we could do all these amazing, wonderful things that are not grounded in any sort of reality at all. I think that's, that's a lovely reframing. I love this conversation.

We are in danger, I suspect of agreeing with each other the whole way through it. Cause we come from the same perspective and that's not a bad thing, but I guess there's an argument to be had that this has always been the way, right? Really successful leaders and managers behind the maybe decades ago, we're doing the same things.

Maybe not. Maybe business was different. Maybe there's a different focus.

Maybe there certainly was a place at the time for the Jack Welch's of this world who may not have put so much stead in this sort of stuff, but I'm wondering how much our current landscape is affecting us. So we can chuck in the VUCA reference or whatever we want to call it, but do you think this is this kind of approach has become harder?   , has the, the changes in our environment really now making this, uh, actually it's not a nice to have, it's not a few, few people on the edges that need to do this.

Actually, this is absolutely front and centre of what people need to do today. Where do you stand on this whole environment with dealing with and the challenges it puts on the leadership piece?

Recovery, resilience and the danger of “shut up and move on”

[Russell Harvey] (22:43 - 23:22)

Yeah. So,  remember resilience is about recovery. Okay.

So I'm curious to know about how well individuals, organizations, societies has recovered from the pandemic. You know, I'm just out there as a great, I'm curious about that. Anytime that a, you know, a team and individual faces a challenge, my concern is that it has, it has become more, well, I think we're diverging as a, as a, as a global world on our view of the world versus shut up and move on.

[Andy Goram] (23:22 - 23:23)

Okay.

[Russell Harvey] (23:23 - 24:21)

I think we're diverging more now. More people from the pandemic have gone, it's like, yeah, can we just crack on with the next thing or shut up and move on? Or I know it's horrible, but I just want to make sure that I come out winning.

So shut up and move on, you know,  and, uh, others sort of going, actually, do you know what? I think there's a better way of doing things. I think we need to talk better about how we're doing, how we're enabling ourselves to be our best, how we're enabling ourselves to get on as a society and a community and what's actually, what's actually valid and worthwhile and what's really important.

I think we're diverging. So, you know, I, I was really curious that at times through the pandemic, the language that was used by some government officials was very much around,   , now that this is over and it's finished and it's done. You know, how, how is the country going to move forward?

So yes, we don't, we don't need to talk about this anymore because that's finished.

[Andy Goram] (24:21 - 24:22)

It's finished. Yeah.

[Russell Harvey] (24:22 - 24:59)

And I'm going, well, resilience is part of recovery. And so, and so people, some people would have listened to, yes, that's finished. That's done.

We can move on. And some people would have gone, yeah, I'll go with that. And others were going, I'm not ready to, you know, for me to now be able to feel perform and motivated and, and there's some things I need to process.

And in a VUCA world, the change is constant. The sort of the craziness of things that are happening. So if you look at the world today and, uh, I've just had a quick squeeze at the latest world economic forum of what the challenges are going to be over the last, the next two to ten years.

[Andy Goram] (24:59 - 25:01)

Please share that optimistic view of the world.

[Russell Harvey] (25:03 - 26:20)

You know, but however, without, it might be an ego boost. They also say one of the skills that is really, really required going forward is resilience. Yeah.

So, you know, yeah.  So I think it, I'm concerned about sharp and move on because it turns into gaslighting and bullying when people want to go, can I just have, before we move on, can I just, can I have a word? Can I just have a chat about something, please?

You know, and, and there's a real risk because I see it everywhere I go. You know, I literally see it everywhere I go because it probably feels too hard a lot of the time to go, I'm feeling battered and bruised as a leader and a line manager. I've not worked out how I think and feel about this.

How personal resilience gives leaders the confidence to challenge upwards

And because I'm not in a personal resilience place and I'm not entirely sure what to do with my humans that are reporting to me and somebody else wants to go, can we talk about this? And I'm going, I don't know if I'm equipped to talk about it. It's like, so I think that's why it's even more important for anybody's a line manager.

Consider this word resilience for themselves personally, because it's going to support you next time somebody turns around and goes, can we talk about this? You'll be in a much better place to go, go on then.

[Andy Goram] (26:22 - 26:40)

There you go. That's the first thing, even just that. Well, what do you want to talk about?

Rather than someone says, can we talk about it? You're feeling like, right, I now need to download all the answers to all of your problems. It's not about that, is it?

It's about engaging in a conversation, starting with a question. I love that.

[Russell Harvey] (26:41 - 27:00)

Yeah. It's like, yes, of course, because when you, you know, the third of those three things a leader is responsible for is nurturing and growing their own personal resilience, you know, in a way they find interesting and enjoyable because they see the value in the benefit. They're perfectly comfortable at any stage.

When somebody says, oh, can we just have a discussion about this? Oh yeah, of course we can.

[Andy Goram] (27:01 - 28:05)

I think it's fascinating that still in, in rooms, in meetings, webinars, whatever it is there, your divergent thing, I think is fantastic because there are plenty of people who's, can we not talk about this anymore? We've done it. We need to get back to normal.

We need to get back to the way it was. And I think we're just overplaying the fact that for the vast majority of us, we've had to make some huge changes in how we operate as people. You know, even this whole clamour to get people back in, back in the office.

Right. And look, as a person who likes being with people, I'm all, I'm all for that. Right.

I'm all for that. but people had to make huge changes in their lifestyles to cope with what was going on and to just dispense with those and go back to the way that's another bunch of things to unpick, which causes more pressure, right? So there's a lot of stuff to deal with.

[Russell Harvey] (28:05 - 29:15)

It is. And so once again, springing forward learning. So in something that is going to be coming up, so there's these two funny letters that people keep saying everywhere, AI, no idea what it means, you know, just like, you know, what is that?

So springing forward learning is like, what have you truly learned from the VUCA-ness of recent times? Because something is happening right now, which is potentially going to be the most VUCA of all VUCA things that's ever happened. And we're all working it out.

I think this year the general population is going to work out for itself. Well, you know, future thinkers look at,  how industry and the world is going to utilize and face into AI. They've changed their minds a few times and the next thing, but the rest of the world will be lagging behind that future thinking of like, so yes, something's we, how we, the human and AI interaction.

And so once you have learned from the past, you'll be, be able to face into better what's coming next. So I think it's just so relevant and important, Andy.

[Andy Goram] (29:16 - 30:31)

I mean, it's, it's, it, it's unavoidable today in any conversation, it almost on any topic to come up with, uh, some sort of position on, on the AI piece. Uh, it's really interesting for me as a, as a podcast host, as well as a sort of facilitator on these sorts of things. It's, it never now fails to surprise me.

I could be thinking about a completely different topic and the AI will come in and it'll, you know, kibosh something from the left or right. Another thing we've got to deal with. I am keen to kind of like, just dig into this resilience wheel a bit.

And, but maybe I don't know whether this is the right preface or not, Russell. So you tell me, but I also want to reference, uh, the, the, the toxic resilience piece, right? Because I think there's a, I'm sure you're spearheading it, but there seems to be a bit of a need to reclaim what resilience is really, really about.

Why resilience shouldn’t feel like ‘one more thing to do’

I know you're on, you're on that, you're on that quest and trying to move away from that toxic thing around in endurance or putting up with stuff or being a good sort and just get, getting on with stuff. And then maybe how the resilience wheel can help us like reclaim, recentre and get back to what we need to be doing.

[Russell Harvey] (30:32 - 34:00)

Yeah. So I feel like I'm on a mission on a few different things. So bounce back is in all the terminology, that's out there and you mentioned it, I think in your, in sort of your intro.

So if we link a few different things here, so the, the VUCA thing is change is constant. So, you know, do some research and really understanding what that means, because we will never go back to how it was, you know, we're only ever going to move forward into something, you know?   , and so, you know, what, what do you want to take with you through this journey through life so that you can, the most of the time somebody asks, how are you?

You can go, actually, you know, there's loads going on. So, and so hopefully that doesn't sound toxic to anybody. So we don't anybody to sort of, when I go, oh, can I have a word about it?

Somebody does the finger pointing of like, you just, you just remember, you just need to be resilient, you know? So that's not what I want anybody to do essentially around this. So, you know, the, the, the benefits of being resilient, you know, you feel listened to, you feel heard, you feel understood, you feel as though you're valued.

You feel like you're being allowed to sort of play to your strengths. You genuinely feel a social connection to the team that you were part of. You feel part of something, you know, there is a belief in like a higher purpose that is somewhere in there where you've sort of go, do you know what, I'm, I'm, I'm part of something essentially.

That's the, one of the many intentions around the resiliency piece. And so really quickly, you know, I know you'll ask details at the end, but it's on the website built upon research. If anybody asked me the question, so Russell, how do I build my resilience?

I go, there's a wheel, it's got seven things on it, you know, essentially seven words, maybe eight words. So heart resilience, our attitude, settle away of thinking, feeling about life. Then resilient people have a purpose.

So I've talked about mine. There is the word confidence. Okay.

And if there's time, I would like to put another bit of challenge down there around imposter syndrome. That's something that worries me. So confidence is one of the words, uh, adaptability is one of the words, openness to change, but not necessarily doing it.

So there's a difference between adaptable and agile. Then there's your whole support network. Who've you got in your life that supports you?

And that's the original research from Robertson Cooper. And I've added two more, which is meaning, which is our internal storytelling. Okay.

So how it's our self-talk, how we tell the stories of our lives, which is the answers to the question. How are you? How's the project going?

How's your life? How's the team understanding how the most useful, helpful way. And finally energy, which is all about the strengths based approach.

Okay. So, people can look at do a bit of a self-assessment. I have my own podcast on my website, which I've done an episode on each one.

You can list to that and then self-assess. And then that's there for everybody for the rest of their lives, because Robertson Cooper put it into the world for free, keep nurturing and growing your personal resilience wheel. And you can relate it to personal resilience, leadership, team, and organizational resilience.

It's a model that you can put into all of those areas essentially. And as a result of that,   , yeah, you'll get the benefits I've mentioned and loads more.

[Andy Goram] (34:02 - 34:34)

Okay. I love, I love the, I love the framework. I'm a sucker for a framework.

Anything that can help me think about things in a more simplistic way and then take some affirmative action, which we will get to towards the end of the, this episode. I love you've, you've now pulled me into another area. Now, when you, when you talk about commerce and you sort of said, if we've got time, can we have a little look at imposter syndrome?

Please pull back the curtain and dig away. My friend, what is it that concerns you right now around imposter syndrome? So what are you thinking?

[Russell Harvey] (34:34 - 36:40)

Yeah. So, so I remember I'm not energized by detail. That's not one of my strengths.

So don't ask me to quote things.  So my understanding that the original research individual, people in our field of learning and development took it and went, Oh, there's a thing. That's a product we can go and do a course on.

And I'm being really simplistically and say to everybody, you've got a thing, you have a syndrome. Okay. However, in my opinion, it's about the word confidence.

So everybody in some way, shape or form. So confidence is, can you believe that you can do something in any particular moment? So if I say, Andy, will you come over here and help me tell my shoelace?

You'll have a belief where you can do it. Andy, will you come over and help me write this report? You'll have a belief.

Andy, will you come over here and stand in front of 200 people and do a speech? You'll have every human being will have a belief in that moment in time about whether they can do it or not. Okay.

So a syndrome is, is a label and you know, it's a, it's a medical thing. Okay. So imposter syndrome is talking about confidence.

So I'm concerned. I'm sure everybody's doing this, but I have seen lots and lots of people turn around and go, hello, my name is, and I have got the imposter syndrome and I respond, you know, in the moment, sometimes with not a good poker face and probably verbally say the words, just, just tell me a bit more about that, you know? And so once again, I'm just wanting to push back, you know, uh, resilience, talk about it in the best way possible.

Be mindful of labelling yourself with something because we all have confidence. One of the dimensions of resilience is knowing and understanding what it is that enables you in your life in a particular moment to hold the belief that you can do something. Yeah.

So, please be mindful of imposter syndrome.

How resilience builds the confidence to challenge unsustainable systems

[Andy Goram] (36:40 - 37:55)

I think that's a fantastic take. I mean, it's a conversation that comes up in a lot of workshops that I, I end up running and I think the topic of imposter syndrome can be really useful for helping people get out of their way in a lot of instances. Cause I'm, I'm with you, whether we get into the absolute detail of confidence, capability, and intelligence on our own belief about what levels we've got compared to everybody else, very often two things are at play.

We're setting ourselves unrealistic expectations on those things. And maybe lesser, lesser extent, the environment we're working in or the people that we're working in are causing us to kind of distort what the reality of these things really is. And it's been a sort of a topic of this conversation today.

I think it all comes down to agency. For me, the labels, they're not useful going forward, but they may be useful in helping someone understand what they're feeling. But the, I think the important thing about this is, okay, so let's have a look at why you might be feeling like that.

What's contributing to that. And then what can we do about it? And more importantly, what can you do about it to move forward?

[Russell Harvey] (37:56 - 38:54)

This is it. And so, and that is backed up by sort of evidence. So one of the other things, and I've talked about the three things that, you know, leaders are responsible for.

Uh, there are also, six other things where they sort of say that this is leadership role modelling, resilient leader role modelling things. So actually you wrote your role model purpose, personal resilience yourself, you demonstrate it, you know, you essentially walk up, rock up to work in your own, uh, way possible showing your resilience wheel to everybody else, you know, and what you're doing about it. So you role model it essentially.

And there's a couple of instances where you do purpose and agency, you know, you support individual teams, so you support the team and you support the individuals around purpose and agency. And then one of the, one of the other ones that, might be one of my sticky notes is, committing to sustainable work practices.

[Andy Goram] (38:55 - 38:57)

Okay. I'll pack that a little bit for me.

[Russell Harvey] (38:58 - 41:56)

Well, so it was really interesting. It's standing in a room full of people and I'll say, right, there's, you know, there's three things and they stick six things, leadership role modelling. And we talk about role modelling purpose and agency and everybody starts nodding.

And then the one that just happens to be six is commit to sustainable work practices. And then the room stops nodding. And they, they, they look at you differently because the first five, I know I've not done all five.

But the first five, they just nod and go, yeah, get that. I can see that. Yeah.

Yeah. I've got to do something. Now that links to the first of the three, delegate brilliantly and remove blockages to your people performing.

So another linkage here. So committing to sustainable work practice links to removing the blockages to your people performing. Cause what that means is as a resilient leader, at some point you're having a coaching conversation with your individual and I go, it doesn't matter how many times you asked me boss, what I can do about this.

We've gone to the, come to the point where it's in your gift. Yeah. I can't do anything about it.

You're more senior to me. It's now your responsibility to go to your peers or up throughout the chain and go, my people can't perform because something is wrong in the organization. And I now need to take responsibility to take this outside of this conversation and go, Hey guys, we need to talk about this.

Okay. And so one of those things, which is in the world diverging, uh, organizations have moved away from committing to sustainable work practices. They just keep going on and do more with less toxic resilience.

Whereas the resilient leader goes, no, this is unsustainable to do it this way. Cause we're not going to be able to, we won't survive as a business. We won't thrive.

We won't adapt unless we challenged the fact that this isn't working. Okay. Our people cannot keep doing this for this period of time, essentially.

Sustainable work practices as a leadership responsibility

And I was listening yesterday on the radio, I  had got a couple of minutes, yes, but there's a midwives report coming out. And as I was listening to the yesterday, that was just a horrific example of, asking people to commit to unsustainable work practices for decades. Okay.

And so, uh, you know, fingers crossed, there's a report going in that's going to get listened to, to go this, we can't keep doing this. Okay. You know, so I, I, you know, applaud, I was sad that I was listening to it by, you know, applaud those and people have to go, there are midwives to go, we've got to do something about this.

We've got to find a way to, to change this around. And step one is to try and get everybody to listen to them, to go, this is unsustainable. So committing to sustainable work practices is the responsibility of a resilient leader.

[Andy Goram] (41:56 - 42:03)

I love that. I love that because that do you come back to the, the intro and the difference between coping and thriving?

[Russell Harvey] (42:03 - 42:03)

Yes.

[Andy Goram] (42:04 - 42:05)

This is what we're talking about here.

[Russell Harvey] (42:05 - 42:06)

This is what we're talking about.

[Andy Goram] (42:06 - 42:45)

And there's, there's an element of leadership that enough is enough, right? Enough is enough because we are the ones who have, uh, the direct line opportunity task challenge to challenge upwards or the organization and make systemic change. At times we can ask our employees to do loads of different things and work in all sorts of different ways.

But to your point, when it's unsustainable and often we know it's unsustainable, we just keep push, push, push and see how long we can make it last. It has to be down to us to be the ones to say, no, no, no, we we've got to change the system here or as things are going to go bad.

[Russell Harvey] (42:46 - 43:13)

And when the individual has chosen to nurture and grow their personal resilience, that means that their confidence will be higher. So they will be willing to go. Yeah.

I'm quite happy to leave this conversation with the person reporting to me and go and talk to my boss and my peers or somebody even more senior to me and go, can we have a chat? Yeah. You know?

And even when a person, a further line might go, shut up and move on, I might go, I actually know I can't.

[Andy Goram] (43:14 - 44:19)

Oh, honestly, I, I absolutely love in this conversation. I'm reluctant to pull it to a close before we get into sticky notes. I just wonder, firstly, I love the whole idea of this link between resilience and sharing your wheel with somebody else being vulnerable because that ability to be vulnerable is a massive contributor to trust building.

And then we're back into great relationships. And then we do great things between line manager and employee. I love that whole concept.

I just wonder, I'd fight, feel like I haven't done my job. If I didn't ask you this in all the work you do in all the rooms that you, you walk into the hundreds of thousands of people that you've, you've touched in this, in this way, when you think about the management and leadership challenges to do with resilience, are there consistent blockages or blind spots that you're hearing people dealing with that it's worth voicing them here to sort of say, Hey, Hey, Hey, watch out for these couple of things because I can see these things happening.

[Russell Harvey] (44:20 - 46:23)

Well, I suppose the simplistic one is that, if anybody is thinking to themselves right now, or is saying to themselves, yeah, my organization is not going to go for this. That's, that's a red flag, you know, to go crumbs. It's even more important that they go for it.

, so yeah, anywhere in any room where somebody sort of goes, I know it's a good idea, but it just feels too hard to start that. That is my lifetime's challenge to get people off that hamster wheel to go. I know it's good, but I just can't seem how I'm going to fit it in.

So one of my intentions, I open a lot of my conversations to go is less of my intention in talking about resilience is not to add to anybody's mental to do list. Yeah. Okay.

So if you're already feeling full up here, you know, your head's just above or, you know, below the waterline, I'm not coming on and going, right. You need to do this. You need to do this.

You need to do this. We go, right. This is about some form of replacement, behavioural replacement.

Okay. So, but, but the, yeah, the, the, the measure, the risk is, is that somebody comes along and I say what I say, and it's something so I say that's all well and good, but then that is an Amber and a red flag. That's what gets in the way.

, and so I'm always on, I'm always reflecting on, you know, the awareness that human beings change their behaviours when they see the value and the benefit to themselves. So if I still hear the, that's a good idea, but I haven't done enough on selling the value and the benefit of talking about resilience. Yeah.

That's, that's my challenge essentially. So when they're not getting it, there's something else I need to do to try and find a way through essentially to go, just make a start. One thing, any one thing would just need you to make a start.

[Andy Goram] (46:23 - 47:07)

I think that's so true. I'm always looking for my, for the people I'm working with just to try and find one thing that resonates with them that they can go and do today that just makes them a little bit better or more confident or feel more capable than they did yesterday. That's all we're doing.

, even in my head, my weird little head, I'm thinking if the dentist would say to you, Oh yeah, your gums are bleeding. You don't avoid that. You go and brush a little bit harder in there to make that go better.

It's the same, for me. That's what we're talking about here. Okay.

It has come time to get into sticky notes, Russell. I mean, there's, I mean, you could list about a hundred, I think coming out of today's conversation, but I'm going to push you for three, my friend. So what are your three pills of wisdom to leave the audience with today?

Russell Harvey’s Sticky Notes

[Russell Harvey] (47:08 - 47:25)

Yeah. So I'm sorry, I'm just looking down to my left cause I scribble a few different things. So right here and now I'll go for, please remember springing forward with learning.

Please just, you know, remember that. Uh, please remember, commit to sustainable work practices and please remember optimism.

[Andy Goram] (47:26 - 47:46)

Wouldn't that be lovely. That'd be lovely. Cracking sticky notes there, my friend.

So look, I have absolutely loved this conversation. It's been an absolute pleasure to meet you. And if people want to find out a bit about more about you, about your programs, all that good stuff, uh, the resources, where should they go?

Where can they find you?

[Russell Harvey] (47:47 - 48:11)

So the website, theresiliencecoach.co.uk it's essentially on there. And I'm on social media with all of the same things essentially. So, you know, the resilience coach, uh, and you'll find us essentially.

And it's all on there. There's about 180, 200 blogs, you know, uh, just a couple, just a couple to kind of go to stuff on their writing magazines, you know, all that sort of stuff.

[Andy Goram] (48:11 - 48:23)

Brilliant. Well, I'm going to put as many of those links as I possibly can in the show notes. Uh, so people can easily find you Russell.

This has been an absolute joy. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. I really, really appreciate it, my friend.

[Russell Harvey] (48:23 - 48:27)

Likewise. Thank you for being such a great host.

[Andy Goram] (48:28 - 49:11)

Oh, bless you. You take care. Okay, everyone. Well, that was Russell Harvey.

And if you want to find out a bit more about him or any of the topics that we've talked about today, please check out the show notes. So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.

If you have, please like comment and subscribe. It really helps. I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the sticky from the inside podcast until next time.

Thanks for listening.

Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.