Navigating The Emotional Side Of Change
- Andy Goram
- 12 minutes ago
- 31 min read
Most leaders still approach change as if it’s a matter of process. Write a plan, announce the change, run a workshop — and expect everyone to adapt. But as business psychologist John Fisher argues, real change is an emotional journey, not a project plan.
John is the creator of the Fisher Change Curve, a model that explains the messy, looping emotions people experience during change. Unlike the Kubler-Ross grief curve — which is often used in organisations but was designed for bereavement — the Fisher Change Curve recognises that change in the workplace can spark optimism, anxiety, fear, guilt, confusion, and even disillusionment before people move to acceptance.
Why work change feels harder
In life, we deal with constant change — moving house, switching jobs, family upheavals. But in organisations, change often feels tougher. Why? Because imposed change strips away control.
John explains that self-initiated change gives us a sense of agency, preparation, and ownership. Imposed change, on the other hand, often leaves people feeling powerless, sparking resistance or helplessness. Leaders can soften this by involving people early, creating space to talk, and giving them some control where possible.
Beyond Kubler-Ross
The Kubler-Ross curve has value, but John points out it doesn’t account for self-initiated change or the positive emotions that often accompany it. Nor does it capture identity and self-belief — both of which are central to how people cope with transitions at work.
The Fisher Change Curve, by contrast, maps both highs and lows, including anxiety, fear, threat, guilt, confusion, and eventual acceptance. It also recognises “dead ends” such as denial, hostility, or disillusionment, where people may choose to leave if the change violates their values.
The danger of self-limiting beliefs
One of the most striking parts of John’s model is the downward spiral from fear into threat. As he puts it:
“That’s when those self-limiting beliefs nibble away at your confidence. Fear turns into threat — ‘I’ve failed before, so I must be useless now.’ That inner voice keeps you stuck.”
Recognising and addressing these beliefs is key for leaders trying to help their teams move forward.
Practical lessons for leaders
John’s advice is clear:
Engage early and often. Silence creates anxiety; honest conversations build trust.
Acknowledge emotions. Fear, guilt, and confusion are normal, not signs of weakness.
Celebrate small wins. Quick victories build momentum and confidence.
Use SCARF as a guide. Pay attention to triggers like status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness — they shape how people respond to change.
Above all, leaders must remember that people move through the curve at different speeds. Just because a leader has processed the change doesn’t mean their team has.
John Fisher’s Sticky Notes of Advice
Trust yourself. You know more than you think — make the call.
You’re not your past. Previous choices don’t define tomorrow.
Don’t stop. If you’re going through hell, keep going. There’s always a light at the end of the tunnel.
Change may be relentless, but John Fisher’s insights show that it can also be deeply human. By recognising the emotional journey, leaders can help people not only survive change — but grow through it.
🎧 Listen to the full episode below, or read the full transcript that follows:
Full Transcript
[Andy Goram] (0:10 - 3:57)
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Why change is never just a process problem
Okay then, now change is everywhere.
New systems, restructures, mergers, introduction of AI, market shifts, new people, new responsibilities and leaders today are expected to deliver results in an environment where change is relentless. But it isn't just the leaders that are dealing with change. Yes, they got to lead it, that's in the job title, but it's the rest of us who have to live it.
Employees and teams often expected to absorb change on top of the day-to-day demands of their jobs. No wonder it feels overwhelming, messy and emotional at times. And yet many organizations still treat change as if it is purely a process problem.
Create a plan, send some emails, maybe run a workshop to engage everybody and get everybody on board and then they'll just crack on, maintaining delivery of BAU and delivering this bright new shiny thing effectively too. But real change doesn't work that way because change isn't just a rational thing. It's very much an emotional thing.
And my guest today has spent well, years of his career making sense of that emotional journey. John Fisher is a business psychologist, a constructivist thinker and the creator of the Fisher Change Curve, a model that neatly explains the stages people go through when they experience change from anxiety and happiness to fear, guilt and eventual acceptance. His framework helps leaders and everybody else understand what's really happening beneath the surface when change hits and enables them to deal with it effectively.
So today we'll explore why he developed the curve, how it differs from something you may have heard of in the famous Kubler-Ross grief model and most importantly, what practical lessons can we all take so that we can navigate the human side of change more effectively? Welcome to the show, John. Thank you very much, Andy.
A pleasure to be here and looking forward to this a lot. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I think change is just a constant conversation in the world.
Even before we started recording today, we were talking about lots of pieces that were going on, like we're affected by change. So I think there's a huge amount to talk about and I think some of us just go through life just being impacted by it and having no agency over that and hopefully we can kind of get under the skin of some of those things today. But before we sort of like unpacking all the secrets of how to deal with change effectively, my friend, do me a favour.
Just give us a better introduction to you and your background and what you're sort of focused on today.
Meet John Fisher: from radar systems to psychology
[John Fisher] (3:57 - 5:26)
Okay, thank you, Andy. I suppose my background's helped me with perspective a lot because it's been one of massive change really over the years. I was born in a smallish market town on the edge of the Yorkshire Dales to a working class family, joined the Air Force at 16, working on aircraft radar systems predominantly.
So started life with a little bit of that structure and framework that electronics gives you and never quite felt comfortable. Always felt that imposter syndrome and then having worked on aircraft simulators for a while, I made the leap into project management really and worked for a multinational in their project management team. And during that time, I started doing the open university and a psychology degree, which had always been an interest from really Desmond Morris's man-watching book that came out sometime millennia ago that was really influential on a couple of levels.
He was one of the first real populist psychology guys, wasn't he really?
[Andy Goram] (5:27 - 5:31)
He sort of brought it home to the TVs of suburban England, right?
[John Fisher] (5:32 - 8:04)
Definitely, yeah. Hence why a little working class boy suddenly found out there was more to life than whatever was going on. And ironically, Desmond Morris, I found out years later, tapped into one of my overfringing interests of surrealism.
The art form, just love that. And I think in some ways that sort of whole surrealistic viewpoint, it's nicely interchanged. It's just because you don't know what it's going to be like.
It's going to bite you on the backside. It's not going to turn out how you expect, et cetera, et cetera. But then that open university degree led to internal consultancy, led to the psychology chartership, and led to really where I am now doing training, development, coaching, and those sorts of areas.
So as part of that journey, I started doing volunteer counseling on a few organizations, one of which was an alcohol abuse agency. And I started realizing that people would come for the first session, have a really good time, leave on the high, make commitments for the following week, and not turn up, didn't come back. And I started obviously thinking it was me that was rubbish, just as you do, don't you?
And then found that other people had the same experience. So I started thinking about this, and maybe that little bit of surrealist creativity, started calling it the theory of second no-show, and looking at it a bit wider. As you say, a constructivist thinker, I'd come across George Kelly's personal construct theory some years before, and it was really like that road to Damascus experience was the theory that I just realized this guy wrote my life up to that point.
And that theory just fitted so comfortably with what I felt and knew about me and my sort of way of working, way of being.
[Andy Goram] (8:04 - 8:21)
And is that journey, is that what then prompted you to sort of do this research into the, I guess this whole topic of change, the emotional side of change, and I guess the ultimate manifestation of that, John, is the development of the Fisher curve.
Why the emotional side of change matters
[John Fisher] (8:22 - 10:10)
Totally. Yeah, spot on there, Andy. And it was the key word you said, the emotional side of that, that was important to me, because it's all about people in many ways.
So like the book, I spent many an hour in restaurants, bars, cafes, things like that, people watching. And that was part and parcel of it. And I'd come across Kubler-Ross and loved it as some of the other training I'd done and saw the value of the curve and how it applied.
It was almost another sudden realization, but I was toying with the emotional journey and why people could be so positive and not come back. And I started thinking around the whole of that change. With change, you lose something.
There's always a loss involved in it. Kubler-Ross's curve, while it was good, didn't quite fit my experience of the emotional journey in business and organizations. And I like the sine wave curve.
I was well aware of the biorhythms that was going on in those days around the sine waves that's always there, and we're on different ones, and realized that potentially we're on multiple change journeys at the same time. So on one level, you and I are going through that change journey, as we're speaking, there's a mini level, but we're both thinking, how will we come across? How will I come across?
Will it make sense? Is it a step too far, et cetera?
[Andy Goram] (10:10 - 11:35)
I'm really looking forward to this because I think what I take out from what you've just sort of described is that personal, emotional, individual flavor of change, from sitting, watching people, sitting there thinking, hang on, that session went really, really well. Why on earth haven't they come back? It's quite different from a lot of the other side of change, where we could be taking Kotter's model in terms of how to lead effective change, and all the eight steps and everything, or there's a lot of structural stuff around change, a lot of process stuff around change.
But to your point around, it's all about the people, nothing ever happens without the will of the people, which comes from, I think, from a level of understanding, challenge, growth, comfort, all those sorts of bits and pieces, which all, I think, are driven out of the emotional side. And I guess the thing that is also interesting here for me about the emotional side is we've both used this word constructivist. By the way, I'll be honest with you, I had to look that up to make sure I understood what that meant.
How excellent. I look forward to you telling me. I don't know.
My interpretation of what I've read was it's as simple as, I guess, linking new ideas or experiences to what we've experienced previously, or what knowledge we've had previously, and trying to sort of like make sense of those things from that perspective. Is that yours? Tom Clougherty Spot on.
Constructivism and interpretation in change
[John Fisher] (11:35 - 13:24)
Yeah, spot on. And key word you use there, and it's a word I use a lot as well in a lot of my work, my interpretation of it is, and that is a fundamental constructivist sort of approach to the world and everything. It's about your interpretation.
So the constructivist approach that differs to me from every other approach is things like psychodynamic, Freudism, Jungianism, psychoanalysis, they all tell you what their opinion of you is. Whereas a constructivist approach, I get you to tell me what your opinion of you is. So it turns it totally round and puts the client, puts the coachee, puts the person in the therapy chair, front and center of what's important.
And that whole approach moves it then from, as you quite rightly said really just now, and as part of your intro, there's too much process-driven change. And Kurt Lewin's famous model of change is you unfreeze it, you do something, you refreeze it, which is great. But it's like that old joke used to be of two people in front of a blackboard full of scribbles and calculations with a big circle in it that says, and then a miracle happens and you get to the result.
And that miracle that happens is the person, the individual, their perception, how they see it. So that's what's driven this and it's about how they perceive it.
[Andy Goram] (13:24 - 14:21)
I think that's why this conversation is an important one, John. And if I may, because I am quite keen to get into your particular curve and talk about, just before we do, we just sort of take a step back maybe in that we're going to use the C word a lot in here today, change, and make no apologies for that. But I guess it feels at the moment, and maybe every generation feels like this, we're going through an unprecedented amount of change.
It feels like, I mean, that phrase constant change, it feels like that underplays it at the moment. It feels very restless in the world at the moment. But we are constantly dealing with change in our personal lives.
But I don't know, I have this kind of thought or theory that for some reason when it comes to work, we treat it differently and we seem to think it's a lot harder. What does your research say about that pathetic hypothesis?
Do we treat change differently at work than in life?
[John Fisher] (14:22 - 16:00)
I think it's a really nice, neat hypothesis, Andy, to be honest, because I think we do. I think we do treat it differently. I think we do.
I think we don't realize, I'll turn it around a little bit. I think we don't realize that we're the same in and out of work. There's so much around, and I still hear it all the time.
I'm a different person in work to at home. And I sort of want to say, and occasionally do, it depends on the relationship, why do you get into another body when you leave work or when you come to work? You're not the same person.
You're just choosing to react in different ways. And I think that's still a hangover from the British stick-up-a-lip syndrome, where we've got to be strong, try harder. We've got to do all of those things without it having that impact on us.
And we can't, and we don't. And sometimes all these multiple changes that's going through us create bigger and more significant problems because we feel overwhelmed. We don't know where to start.
We don't know when it'll end. And that then triggers wider and bigger problems in society because people get that learned helplessness and start feeling adrift and cut off even more from their anchor to carry on mixing metaphors and don't know where to turn.
[Andy Goram] (16:01 - 17:04)
I'm sure that you will help us understand and explain as we go through, but there is definitely something, I think, in the psychology of change that somewhere in our psyche, depending, I think this is probably what differentiates people who are accepting or more accepting of change than those that aren't, come back to constructivist stuff, previous experiences of dealing with things or similar things. And our experience of whether that went well or went badly is going to influence how we react to these things.
And our degree of emotional intelligence, I guess, being able to sort of like, yes, feel the emotional reaction, but process it in a reasoned, adult way and helping us deal with that, it probably lies right at the heart of some of these things as to why these things happen. I just want to pick up on something I think you said in that, is there a difference between self-initiated change and imposed change? And if so, what is the difference and how do we think about that differently?
Self-initiated vs imposed change: why control matters
[John Fisher] (17:05 - 18:57)
Yeah, I do think there is a difference and sort of more anecdotally than academically, the conversations I have with people appear to imply there's a change. And it's about control. It's about, if you initiate it, you are more prepared for it.
You've maybe thought through some of the wider implications and you've taken that time to get your head in a place that's more adaptable and amenable to some of the things that could blow you off course on that change, but you're driving it. And I think that for me is one of the key things around changing organizations. So for me, one of the ways that leaders can help them manage their people going through change is by giving them a sense of control, a sense of ownership, a sense of engagement.
So it's about talking to them. It's about allowing them to add their feelings, talk about what worked really well in the past, but close it down a little bit. And it's allowing them to come up with feeling safe to challenge the change, feeling safe to say, well, what happens there and what's going to happen here and have those conversations.
And that for me helps generate commitment rather than compliance and helps people be able to find their own way through the change. You don't have to agree with them. You don't have to go with what they say, but it's allowing that discussion to take place so that they're with you.
[Andy Goram] (18:57 - 21:08)
That's a processing point, isn't it? I think that is, again, moving from our kind of emotional perspective into our reasoned perspective, just the ability to kind of talk that through. Some of us, I guess, can do that processing just by taking some time to think it through.
Ourselves, others of us need the conversation. We need to be able to express it or work out what we've, because we don't have great words, I don't think. We're not able linguistically to explain feeling very well.
And I think that chatting it through helps us, I guess, rationalise what we're feeling. God, I love all these sorts of conversations. I hope everybody's following my ramble.
Now, let's get into your model, right? Because we've mentioned Kubler-Ross a couple of times, and maybe people listening who aren't too familiar with that, but certainly your reimagining of a change curve in the Fisher curve, which is equally well-known now. I'd love to understand a couple of things, John, if you'd be willing to share.
Firstly, why and how the Kubler-Ross curve is perhaps not enough for the topic of organisational change. It's not where it started. It's been adopted.
I find that really interesting because I myself have used it in a few sessions with organisations to try and help people come to terms with the different stages and emotions that they might be feeling. I hadn't come across your curve previously, but I will be using that going forward. And I find it really interesting how people interact with that.
I think, particularly people who have been through grief, because that's where I guess it came from, they can relate to it a little more. Those that perhaps haven't, or haven't looked at it, find it harder. They also find that curve to be quite negative in its language.
So, how many questions did I ask in that ramble? Probably too many. Oh, 15 or 16.
But from your perspective, my friend, why is the Kubler-Ross curve not enough? Why is it not really applicable for organisations? And where does yours come in?
Why Kubler-Ross isn’t enough for organisational change
[John Fisher] (21:09 - 23:20)
I think you sort of semi-answered that in part of your questions and your thought process there. The Kubler-Ross process is superb. This shows what a sad person I am.
The day after my dad died, and he literally dropped dead in an instant, I took my mother through the Kubler-Ross curve, and six months later, I found it still on the sideboard at home. And I made a comment, and my mum said, I found it really useful. It helped me a lot.
And I think it's because it does tap into the psyche of where people are at in bereavement. I think the difference, though, between the bereavement curve and my change curve, or a non-bereavement curve, is the bereavement curve is quite negative, and it's about a reaction to an event. But if we map back on your earlier question about self-initiated or imposed change, the bereavement curve doesn't quite cover the self-initiated or the buying.
And one of the things I tend to do is make little models to help me make sense. And I created one that was really a two-axis model, so potentially the old Boston Boats for a model, where one axis was I've been here before against I haven't been here before. And the other axis was this is going to be good for me against this is going to be bad for me.
And so if you've been here before and it worked out well, totally different approach, totally different mindset to if you have not been here and you got shafted, or you think you're going to get shafted. And I think that's where Kubler-Russ doesn't quite help, because it's more about the process rather than the impact of it on your sense of identity.
[Andy Goram] (23:21 - 24:03)
And I think your point around the lack of connection to the self-initiated, potentially more positive attitude towards change and the process of dealing with it is definitely lacking. It's not a self-initiated thing in dealing with the grief at that point. So OK, so we've got the established Kubler-Russ, but we've now got the Fisher curve.
So talk me through the curve, talk us through the stages, and perhaps why you feel, and organizations are using it so clearly they feel, it's a more appropriate or perhaps more focused and useful process for dealing with the emotional side of change in a work environment.
Introducing the Fisher Change Curve
[John Fisher] (24:03 - 27:39)
I think the answer to the second part of that question is, because I'm a bit like Winnie the Pooh, I bear a simple brain, it seems to connect on that almost faith validity part, so people can look at it, they can see those emotions and that emotional journey, and it just resonates with them. Whereas some of the anger that you go through and then the Kubler-Russ stages don't quite make the same sort of sense in an organizational setting as it does in that bereavement where you're still feeling that pain, as it were. So I think it's one of those that's just tapped into the zeitgeist that has been around since I created it back in 99.
And it follows a little bit of Kubler-Russ, so I do think when that change first happens, there's that little bit of a yes, thank God something's changed with some people. Yeah. Thank God something's changed.
I'm really looking forward to this. This can be really good. Let's get it on.
But then as you sort of get a little bit more into it to get past that initial spark, you then move into a little bit more of that anxious stage that's, how will I cope? I know I think it's going to be whatever, but will it be like that? Will it be?
And then as we go further down into the threat side of it, that downward curve is about perceiving a larger impact on your sense of identity as that change comes into effect. So you're then going to, was I really like that? Am I really like that?
Does that really show me as I truly am type of comments that as we get down to the guilt area, it's where we then extrapolate maybe one thing and take that to apply to the whole of us. So we look at one element where we feel out of our debt and expand it to say, well, if I'm out of debt here, I must be out of debt everywhere. And I don't know what to do.
I'm stuck. The choice I made in the past works. So I'm useless at making choices.
And that inner voice goes through us that prevents us from seeing the wood for a trees that prevents us from recognizing that we'd made some really good decisions in the past. And one of the other things I love about the constructivist philosophy is Kelly's words were, you're not a victim of your biography. So just because you choose to do something in the past doesn't mean that's what you'll do today.
And we're all totally free to make different choices to then help us make more effective choices. So we don't have to keep going in the same cycle. Our past doesn't define who we are tomorrow.
It just hints at who we were yesterday. And so it's also about very motivational, empowering philosophy around movement.
[Andy Goram] (27:40 - 27:58)
Brings you back to having some control and agency, like you said before, the sense of ownership, I think. Just for the listeners, John, the stages associated with the Fisher curve, can you just run through them? Give us a sort of a highlighted synopsis.
Stages of the curve: from anxiety to acceptance
[John Fisher] (27:58 - 29:21)
I suppose I better start at the first stage, really, haven't I? Because I've said anxiety a few times as the stage. And that's sort of when you know change might be coming, or you've just got that feeling.
It's that initial, something's happening, what's going on? And there was a phrase that was used a lot when I was a child growing up in the post-war, sort of, 50s, 60s sort of era, around initially in 1939, they had what they called the Tony War. And people knew it had been declared, but nothing was happening.
And that's almost like the anxiety stage. You know something's going to happen, but it's not. And that's where the how will I go, what will I, what can I, how can I?
That then leads into that when it happens, you then go, great, now let's have a look, let's see. And this is where our own control or not comes into it. So what can I control?
How can I control it? Where can I control it? Which then takes us into a what I call the fear stage, which is a slightly larger impact than just that anxiousness.
It's okay. So I think that I can do this. I think I can do that.
[Andy Goram] (29:22 - 29:40)
But that's a really interesting kind of leap, isn't it? Because we've got anxiety to start with, and we've got this kind of period of happiness, but then we take a, I'm not going to say a dark turn, but there's, I guess, a bit more processing and reasoning. So it's not just the surface level stuff, but oh, okay.
So what does that really involve? That's what we're talking about here.
[John Fisher] (29:40 - 30:16)
Yeah, very much so. And that then becomes when maybe if we've got that self-limiting belief, if we've got that behavior that we're not quite sure of, that's when that starts to come in and nibble away at our confidence, our ego, which then from fear takes us into threat. And that threat is a larger impact.
So, oh, I can see me not coping well here. I can see me invalidating who I am. I can see me making a real mistake in this sort of area.
[Andy Goram] (30:16 - 30:21)
I'm not very good at this sort of stuff. I've failed at this before, that sort of stuff.
[John Fisher] (30:21 - 33:20)
That's it. That's where it comes in. So the, I'm not very good in the theory is maybe I'll not be very good at this.
But then that awful word catastrophizing turns into, I wasn't very good at this 48 years ago in that one day on that one situation. Therefore, I'm useless at this now type of situation that then takes us into guilt, that takes us into, God, I'm useless. Why am I so useless?
Why am I so not able to cope very well and everything? And I realized that during that, that within my experience at the initial stages of that downward slope, people were quite angry at the other for forcing them to change. And as they get towards the bottom of the slope, that anger turns round and they're mad at themselves for not being better, not being able, not being more capable to do dot, dot, dot.
So we have that little pivot within it that then takes us into what I originally called depression. But quite rightly, somebody pointed out to me one day that there's a danger of it being mistaken for clinical depression. So I changed it to confusion.
It's that brain swab, a brain fog. It's that I don't know what to do. I don't try that because that's failed.
I don't try that because I don't know. That just whirls around until I started calling it a flash of insight until something you find and you can hold on to, you can clutch onto the plank that's floating or whatever it is that you can then start building on. And with support from your leader, the team or the people, you can then start recognizing that actually you can do things one bite at a time.
You can take it slowly, steadily. A couple of proverbs, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step and that how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time. And it's just doing it that way that then takes you into that gradual acceptance of success, building on success, building on success that brings you to be able to move forwards and leave that one behind.
And somebody contacted me a few years ago now saying, I think there's another phase John that leads moving forwards with the anxiety of complacency. And that's where you sit and look back and think, what on earth was I worried about? Why did I make such a big thing of that?
Because we're through it and you then forget about it.
[Andy Goram] (33:20 - 34:53)
I think that's what's really interesting because I think that's where that protection element of the brain comes in because we don't know. We've got Swiss cheese going on in the brain and I guess the brain doesn't really like that. So it fills it in with stuff that will ultimately come back to its first directive of keeping you safe.
And then it's only through, this is again, constructivist, your experience of, do you know what? It wasn't so bad. Actually it was all good.
Actually, God forbid I say this out loud, it's beneficial. So we're now informed for any future things again. We've got a positive take out of it.
And I think one of the most overlooked things that you've said in this curve that I definitely subscribe to is this notion of small steps leading to a greater level of sustainable change. And I think this is sometimes where I don't think organizations have necessarily figured it out properly because somehow that sounds slower. Somehow that sounds like, well, we're not tackling the big things.
But the reality is when we try and make big leaps in our lives, oftentimes those are the things we can't stake in the ground and create a habit out of. We try, we fail, we don't like it. It feels uncomfortable.
We give up or it takes us a lot longer. I just think that this small steps, like you said, little wins, convinces changing the Swiss cheese in our brain from a negative perspective to a positive perspective. I think this is what enables really positive, sustainable change.
Quick wins, small steps, and sustainable change
[John Fisher] (34:53 - 36:39)
Yeah. And it's sometimes called the low hanging fruit. Get those quick wins, celebrate those quick wins, and get people feeling comfortable about moving forwards, about going in the right direction.
There's a couple of the stages that are dead ends, shall we say, of the curve that we haven't quite talked about. And I'll combine two together. One is denial and the other one is hostility.
And the two are very, very similar, but polar opposites. So denial is just ignoring the change, carry on doing what you've always done and hoping everybody else changes back to you and just ditches the change. So no energy expressed, nothing like that.
Whereas hostility is where you try and prove the idiot's wrong for making your change. So lots of energy, lots of engagement in a negative sense to do it. And we see people all the time, infamous King Canute telling the ways to go back is an example of hostility.
And the other one, which I think is my favourite because it's been personal for me a few times, is what I call disillusionment. But I tend to call it so that I'm off. And that's that realisation that my values, I'm not prepared to compromise those to stay in your organisation and your change.
So I go, I get out because I realise I'm better than that change is trying to make me into.
Dead ends: denial, hostility, and disillusionment
[Andy Goram] (36:40 - 37:44)
How interesting. And like, even when you're describing all of these stages, they're very, very emotionally led, very emotionally led. And I guess people do not work through this curve in a particularly linear fashion all the time, but it's messy and all over the place.
And we'll go backwards and forwards, depending on who we're with and the context and how comfortable you feel and all those sorts of things. I bet you as well, we got little triggers firing off all the time. And you're the psychologist in the room.
I'm just the enthusiast on this sort of stuff. But it feels to me that David Rock's scarf model is absolutely at play here a lot of the time, because whilst those feelings are there, they're being triggered, I think, with our sense of, and you've mentioned things like sense of ownership, right? Which to me comes to autonomy, I guess, within the scarf model.
But status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, fairness, I think they're all being fired off at different times at different times.
[John Fisher] (37:44 - 39:56)
Do you agree with that? I totally agree with that. And sometimes they're all being fired up at the same time on different curves.
I tend to sort of naively or simplistically think of David Rock's really nice little model in a way that's the same as the pastel model, the same as the six P's, the five M's. It's a window into where you're at at that time. So some of those elements will be more apparent at some times.
All of them will be apparent at some times. And as you rightly say, they're the triggers for some of those stages, for some of the movement backwards or forwards of those stages. So if I was using the scarf model in a way, I'd almost do a fishbone as your tower diagram.
And the scarf model would be the bones coming off the central change element. So, okay, what does this change mean for me, for my autonomy? What are the positives I'll get from the autonomy?
What are the negatives? What does it mean for me on strategy structure, processes, methods? So whichever of the models I'm using, it's a really nice way of helping people get a bit of clarity and helping them put a handle on it.
I think one of the other key things for leaders, especially, is that sometimes it doesn't happen at all. It's that recognition that just because they're at a specific point on the curve doesn't mean their team are anywhere near them and could be all over the curve. And some are more adapted to the change than they are and some less adapted to the change than they are.
And I think sometimes leaders get caught up in where they are and assuming everybody's in the same place.
SCARF triggers and why leaders misjudge readiness
[Andy Goram] (39:57 - 41:35)
Yeah. I mean, I think we see that with things like psychological safety, don't we? Yes, we do.
I think we had Gary Keogh on here talking about that a few episodes ago. And I'm sure I'll get the number wrong, but I think he was sort of saying around between 70 and 80% of leadership overestimate the level of psychological safety in their team for the very reasons you've just said. The same here with acceptance of change.
And sometimes I've been there as a leader. I've spent weeks, sometimes months pre-dealing with the notion of what we're going to do and working it through and having lots of arguments and conversations and confrontations with my exec team. And then actually, by the time I come to then communicate the change to the team, I'm on it.
I get it. I know why we're doing it. I've been through all that process.
And now I get frustrated because you're not on the bus straight away. I mean, that's nuts, isn't it? Yeah, ludicrous.
But that's life, especially business life. Very much so. I would love, as we start to think about drawing this conversation together, think about some of those sort of practical ways forward on how this curve, how things like SCARF and any other influences can really help leaders take some practical steps.
And it's not just the leaders, but we do focus quite a bit on leadership here, because it is just like you've said, there's a bit of self-awareness and dealing with these things, because if I'm going through this stuff, then my team are going through that stuff. But it's that recognition and, I guess, intention, if you understand that, to then go and do something practical to help everybody through. So what sort of advice would you give?
Practical advice: honesty, engagement, and WIIFM
[John Fisher] (41:36 - 43:40)
I think a lot of it we've implied, both of us throughout, is that engagement, that communication. I think you gave a really lovely example of how you were dealing with the change upwards, totally ignoring, dealing with the change downwards, and recognizing that the people working for you know something's going on. And by you not sharing it, you are creating a bigger dip on that change.
That's a great point. It's engage with the team, talk to the team, listen to what they think, because they might have a better idea than you or upstairs from you. So it's managing the people as people, managing them as individuals.
One of the most powerful persuaders in my little humble experience is with them, what's in it for me? So find out what will help them go through that change even more effectively, what will help them make sense of it, engage them in the journey, and allow them to feel part of that journey and to have contributed to that journey. And this one comes with a massive health warning, because sometimes you just can't be.
But be as open and honest as you can, and where you can, tell them you can, for whatever reason. Usually that organization's secrecy, it's a fast-moving VUCA, a word we haven't mentioned, but it's so applicable, world at this moment. So anything I say now may be changed tomorrow once things clarify and everything.
So be open and honest as much as you can be, where you can't be, tell them. So it's those sorts of things, and help them create that vision of the future with you.
[Andy Goram] (43:40 - 44:36)
Yeah, I think that involvement piece is really important. I also think, you know, come back to your curve, just highlighting this stuff, just showing this sort of stuff, normalizing the emotional stuff that we might feel as a result of this, and recognizing that people may be at different points at different times at the same time. And that is fine, that is normal, that's how we deal with it.
But our ability, I think, to remain connected, to talk off these things out, whilst remaining, from a business sense, you know, firmly focused on the fact that we've got to deal with this. We don't really have a decision to run away from it, you know, we've got to deliver this sort of stuff. But let's just take a breath and remember the human in the room is that we've got some stuff to deal with as a team on the emotional side, as well as the practical and structural side of this thing.
And it's okay to have that stuff front and centre.
[John Fisher] (44:37 - 44:45)
Yeah, and recognizing just because you're uncomfortable doesn't mean they are, it just means you are.
[Andy Goram] (44:45 - 45:27)
Yeah, it's dead easy to get into that doom loop with this sort of stuff, right, which is, I think you've made a very good case for, hey, there's positive elements of all this sort of stuff as well. In an attempt to try and give, I guess, the core pearls of wisdom from inside all of your years of experience, my friend, we've come to a point in the show I call sticky notes, which is, I guess what I'm looking for is three very succinct little watchwords, directives, core pieces of advice that we could fit on three little sticky notes for people thinking about facing into this emotional side of change.
What three little gems would you leave behind on your sticky notes today, my friend?
John’s three Sticky Notes of advice
[John Fisher] (45:28 - 47:05)
I'll try and keep this fairly short and succinct, but I don't promise. One I've already alluded to, I think, but I'll start with one that, in my experience, is one of the biggest hurdles. The number of times I've said to people, trust yourself, you already do know or have a good idea, so trust yourself and just do it, and that links into an expression I've found invaluable through virtually the whole of my working life.
It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, so do it. Trust yourself to do it, because you can make a different choice, and that links into number two, that you're not the victim of your biography. So, okay, make a choice.
If it was wrong, make a different choice. You don't have to live with the choices you've made. You can change them.
I suppose it links into the third one that I usually steal a quote from Churchill that I've seen attributed to Churchill, which is, if you're going through hell, my advice is don't stop, and for me, that's there's always a light at the end of the tunnel. You might not see it till you get round the bend, but things always change. Things are constantly changing.
Nothing stays the same. Okay, it might be a bit rough at this moment. Tomorrow, the sun might shine, so I think those are the three.
[Andy Goram] (47:05 - 47:16)
Brilliant. John, I have loved talking to you today. It's been fascinating.
Totally. Great fun, and before I let you go, where can people find out more about you and get hold of the book and all that good stuff?
[John Fisher] (47:17 - 48:12)
Yep. The best way, I suppose, is go to www.c2d.co.uk, and that's got links to some of the papers I've written, got links to some of the books I've written, and the pamphlets I've written are all on those pages, including more details on some of the other things I do, as well as the curve that's all on there. I cannot use too much social media for a variety of reasons, but I am on LinkedIn as John Martin Fisher, I think, but you can find me eventually, and one of the ways to distinguish is my hair used to be bright ginger until it became pink, and I lost it all.
So, if you've got a picture of an ex-ginger-haired, bald-headed guy, that might be me. That could be you.
[Andy Goram] (48:12 - 48:19)
Brilliant. John, thank you so much, my friend. Thoroughly enjoyed meeting and talking to you, and thanks so much for coming on.
[John Fisher] (48:19 - 48:27)
My pleasure. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and thoroughly enjoyed some of your superb insights as well, so thank you. Bless you.
[Andy Goram] (48:28 - 49:07)
Okay, everyone. That was John Fisher, and if you'd like to find out a bit more about him or any of the things we've talked about in today's show, please check out the show notes. So, that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something, maybe, that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like, comment, and subscribe. It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.
Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.
Comments