The Art Of Trust Building. Part 1 - Why Trust Matters More Than Ever

Andy Goram (left) speaks with Drs. Michelle & Dennis Reina in a special two-part series on Trust Building

Trust is one of those things we rarely think deeply about until we feel its absence.

We notice it when communication starts to narrow. When collaboration becomes harder. When people stop speaking honestly. When relationships feel more transactional than human. When organisations become political, guarded, or exhausted.

And perhaps that’s why conversations about trust suddenly feel more urgent than they used to. Because right now, many organisations are asking people to navigate extraordinary levels of uncertainty and change.

Why Trust Building Suddenly Feels So Important

AI is reshaping roles. Teams are stretched. Decisions are moving faster. Expectations continue to rise. And underneath all of that, there’s a growing awareness that something fundamentally human is being tested.

That’s what made this conversation with Dr Dennis and Dr Michelle Reina feel so timely. Not because they spoke about trust as a fashionable leadership concept. But because they spoke about it as something deeply practical, deeply relational, and deeply human.

You know, trust is often left to chance. We hope it exists.We assume it exists.We feel the consequences when it doesn’t. But very few of us intentionally think about how trust is actually being built, reinforced, weakened, or eroded through everyday behaviour.

You can listen to the whole of Part 1 here, or read the full transcript that follows at the end of this blog.

Trust Is Built Through Behaviour, Not Titles

Dennis describes trust-building as a daily discipline. Something earned

“step by step, moment by moment, every interaction.”

I like it because I think it reframes the continuous nature of trust completely. Not as a vague cultural aspiration. But as behaviour.A repeated behaviour. A consistent behaviour. A habit.

That distinction matters because so much of organisational life still over-indexes on expertise while underestimating human relationships, in my opinion.

Michelle also shared a powerful example of a senior leader who entered an organisation with enormous subject matter expertise and huge expectations attached to his future. Technically brilliant. Highly respected on paper. But over time, people began to experience him as someone who talked at people rather than with them. As a result, trust got slowly eroded.

Most Trust Breakdowns Happen Quietly

What kept coming up throughout the conversation was that most trust breakdowns are not dramatic betrayals. They are little accumulations from missed follow-throughs, poor listening, a lack of openness. People being missed out, or not in the loop. Not getting back to people when we say we will. Small behaviours. Repeated consistently enough to shape how people feel and perceive us.

And perhaps that’s why trust feels so relevant right now. Because the pressure many organisations are experiencing often squeezes out exactly the things trust requires. Those human-skills still too many people sneer at: reflection, real listening, understanding, openness and being willing to be vulnerable

Trust Is Emotional Before It Is Rational

At one point in our conversation, Dennis talks about trust as something visceral, something we feel physically before we even have words for it. That's something many of us can instantly recognise, the emotional atmosphere of a high-trust or low-trust environment without needing it explained.

You feel it in meetings.You feel it in leadership.You feel it in conversations.You feel it in silence. And in today’s world, where so much energy is going into speed, automation, optimisation, and productivity, there’s a risk that we all unintentionally overlook the emotional conditions people need in order to contribute fully and realise their full potential.

Self-Trust Matters In The Age Of AI

The Reinas spoke about how disruption and uncertainty can quietly weaken people’s confidence in themselves. And in the age of AI especially, that feels incredibly relevant.

People are not just asking:“What’s changing?” They’re also asking:“Where do I fit?” “What value do I bring?” “Can I trust my own judgment anymore?”

That’s a deeply human leadership challenge. Because organisations do not become high-trust cultures through process alone. They become high-trust cultures when people feel seen, heard, respected, included, and safe enough to contribute honestly.

Trust Cannot Be Left To Chance

Towards the end of this episode, the biggest shift this conversation invites us to make is to stop treating trust as something abstract. And instead start seeing it as something we can intentionally build through better self-awareness, agency, and intentional action. Taking it moment by moment. Interaction by interaction. Day by day.

And in Part 2 of this conversation, Dennis and Michelle move from philosophy into practice, unpacking the frameworks, specific behaviours, and habits that help leaders intentionally build and repair trust in teams and organisations.

The Full Episode Transcript

[Andy Goram] (0:11 - 3:43)

Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the podcast that explores how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help you turn the lights on behind the eyes of your people, light the fires within them, and help more of us lead successful, fulfilling work lives. This podcast is for anyone who believes that's worth going after and is curious about what really drives people, culture, and performance.

Each episode we dive into the ideas and conversations that help create what I call stickier businesses, places where people thrive and love to work, and where customers stay, recommend you and love what you do and why you do it. So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.

Why Trust Shapes How We Live, Work And Connect

Okay then. Now, the concept of trust is one of those things we all experience every single day, at work, at home, in teams, in relationships. It can shape how we show up, how we connect with others, how ultimately, how well we perform, and how much maybe of our potential we actually get to realise. And yet for something that has such a huge impact on our lives, how often do we actually stop and really think about it?

Not just whether it's there or not, but how we're actively building it, maintaining it, or repairing it when something goes wrong with it. Because if we're honest, I think a lot of the time, most of us tend to leave trust to chance. We hope it's there, we feel it when it isn't, but we're not always that intentional about what we're doing to really influence it.

Now, for me, trust has come up on this podcast many times over the years and in the work that I get to do with clients. And I've explored it through the work of people like Professor Paul Zak, Stephen Covey, Patrick Lengioni, all bringing really powerful perspectives to the conversation. But today, my friends, is different because my guests have been studying trust in organisations for decades, long before many of the frameworks I've just mentioned that we hear and love today became popular.

Dennis and Michelle Reina are the authors of Trust and Betrayal in the Workplace and in the new book, The Art of Trust Building, and are widely, and I mean wildly recognised as pioneers in this space, focused not just on what trust is, but what it actually looks like in practice between us. And recently, they've been part of conversations with some incredibly senior leaders around the globe, hearing firsthand about the pace of change, the constant disruption and the evolving role of AI, and what all of that is doing to trust between people. So for me, that's our backdrop for today's conversation, to explore where trust really comes from, what builds it, how we maintain it, and how you repair it when it breaks.

And I'm hoping, in fact, I know Michelle and Dennis are going to help us get a bit more intentional with our behaviour and show us how to really build lasting, trusting relationships. Michelle, Dennis, oh my goodness me, welcome to the show.

[Dennis Reina] (3:44 - 3:51)

Well, thank you so much, Andy. It's a pleasure to be here. Michelle and I are very excited to have this conversation.

[Andy Goram] (3:52 - 4:12)

Me too. Me too. I mean, we were thinking about having this conversation a long time ago, right, Michelle?

And I don't want to waste too much time talking about the context. I want to get right into it. But before I get too excited and run off, I would like just to get a little brief introduction to both of you.

And because I am a British gentleman, Michelle, I'm going to come to you first.

Michelle Reina’s Story Of Service, Disruption And Human Connection

[Michelle Reina] (4:12 - 4:28)

Oh, well, thank you. Hi, Andy. Well, first of all, I'm having a little bit of a fun moment because it just kind of dawned on me that we are in three very distinct locations.

You're in the UK, I'm in Stow, Vermont, and Dennis is in Costa Rica.

[Andy Goram] (4:28 - 4:31)

I mean, this is wonderful, isn't it? How international we are.

[Michelle Reina] (4:31 - 8:46)

I think we're representing, you know, the world that we are here to serve. Well, thank you so much. You know, I began to learn about trust in the earliest stages of my life.

I was actually born in Africa. I'm the daughter of a military soldier. My father actually was fought in two wars for the United States.

He was actually taken into captivity during the Korean War and was held as a prisoner in that war for nearly three years. And then later he went on to actually fight in the Vietnam War. But I learned from my father how important relationships are.

I learned from my father how essential it was that there be a degree of integrity and that we remember who we are and why we are here. You know, two weeks before he died, when I had the privilege of having some very deep conversations and asked him to talk with me a bit more about that aspect of his life, and something he taught me is that when any of us are facing extraordinary circumstances, now for him it was extreme cases, you know, not many of us are taken into captivity during a war. However, what I learned from him is that we all experience disruption in our life.

We all do. And some of us become a victim to that disruption in our lives. And my father told me stories about during his internment, when he witnessed many soldiers actually falling prey to that sense of victim.

A couple of things that I learned from him throughout my life were that we all have choices at every moment in time on how we are going to respond to what is presenting itself to us. And he shared with me that what gave him an element of satisfaction or peace in his life, where he had to for many, many years work on, you know, the memories of being held in captivity. But he said to me is I have lived every day of my life, being able to walk down every street, remembering that with all that unfolded during my captivity and coming out of captivity, I had had my head held high with the knowing that I did my best to serve our country and to honor what it means to be a member of the military in service to our country.

And that those sentiments very much inspired the work that I do today, where over 35 years, I have had my my primary focus and concentration in my life partnership with Dennis, who's my husband and my business partner, in service to what I believe is the most precious commodity in our life. And it's the relationship with the people we serve, we live with. And we all have an opportunity to be in service to one another.

And I feel very privileged today to sit in a time in our world where we are all globally sharing a common ground, where there is disruption. And we all are turning to one another in a variety of ways and are really looking for that human connection. So my focus and my concentration is to be in service to that and to draw upon the depth of research and tools and best practices that we've been able to cultivate through the years of working with people all over the world, to how we can draw upon that, to support us all, to remember who we are, and to be in service to one another.

And those relationships that forge the deepest connection are the ones that are infused with trust.

[Andy Goram] (8:46 - 8:58)

I love it. I love it. And thank you for your service today to me and the audience in this conversation, Michelle.

Brilliant. And Dennis, how about giving us a little introduction to you, my friend?

Dennis Reina’s Early Lessons About Trust And Vulnerability

[Dennis Reina] (8:59 - 12:15)

Well, the whole notion of trust actually came to me while I was running the Mountaineering Center in Yosemite National Park in the early 70s. And what I realized when you're 2,000 feet up on a big wall, and if you've ever been to Yosemite, you know those walls are pretty darn big, though, 3,000 feet up. And when you're 2,000 feet up and you realize that your belayer has your life in his hands and I, vice versa, have the responsibility of his life in my hands, I clearly got a sense of trust from a very visceral kinesthetic level.

I knew it in my gut. But years later, I wanted to understand it from much more of a practical and even an academic point of view. So, I went back to graduate school and met my bride, Michelle, on the dance floor.

We danced all night, fell in love, and that was 35 years ago, and we've been dancing together forever. And in the early 90s, when Michelle and I first came together, we literally were putting ourselves through graduate school, working numerous jobs, raising two young boys, starting our consulting practice, and helping organizations. At the time, it was total quality management and self-directed work teams were the big thing, right, in the early, late 80s, early 90s.

And as we worked with leaders and interviewed employees, we kept on hearing the same thing, well, this department doesn't trust that department, and this leader doesn't trust that leader. And I'm not sure if our commitments or their commitments will truly be honored. And it really came down to trust.

And we brought this to the attention of leaders, literally 30 years ago, but leaders were not ready or willing to listen or even entertain or talk about trust at that time. They said, oh, they viewed it as a soft, touchy-feely, not relevant and not pertinent to performance, collaboration, or producing results. But today, leaders are totally different.

They see trust as being very critical, very essential to performance, to collaboration, to navigating change. And heaven knows, you have mentioned so many of the different things that we're dealing with right now, the constant disruptions, the uncertainty, the AI, the speed to market, the hybrid or remote working conditions. And the truth of the matter is people are getting exhausted.

They're truly, with all this change, the fundamentals of trust haven't changed, but the context and the surround sound and the environment has. And so finally, we have a listening for trust.

Why Leaders Are Finally Paying Attention To Trust

[Andy Goram] (12:16 - 13:02)

Which I think is a great thing, because it links me nicely to, I think in the interest of just recently, you've been kind of touring around speaking to some pretty senior leaders in big organizations about all this kind of disruption and the impact it's having on trust. So just tell us a little bit about some of those conversations that have happened now, because it certainly feels to me, and we were commenting on a LinkedIn post the other day that a good friend of the show, Joe, you know who you are, put something out there the other day about the Engage Summit in the UK and a panel starting to really talk about trust and how organizations need to get hold of this stuff and start to measure it and act on it. So what are the conversations that you've been having recently?

[Michelle Reina] (13:03 - 15:47)

Well, what they're growing increasingly sensitive to is what they're asking of their people. They're really looking for their people to think out of the box, to make some bold moves, to really look at the acceleration of business, yet in this time and space where there's extraordinary ambiguity and uncertainty. And they're noticing and they're seeing the vulnerability surrounding that.

They're noticing and they're seeing decisions that people are making when they don't always have the full set of information. Efforts that people are executing when they don't necessarily have the depth of experience base or the reference points to go there. They're noticing a little bit of over-dependency on AI as a result of people losing trust and confidence in themselves.

So what Dennis and I are noticing that's rising to the top is this growing awareness among leaders that in order to grow our business, we have got to help our people grow as human beings. And they're recognizing how essential it is that there be attention to human connection, and that requires a focused intention around trust. That it is not going to just magically appear because leadership may say words that express the value of trust or say words that express what is representing their belief in trust, but leaders are really waking up to the fact that they have got to give it focused, intentional attention.

I love the whole facet of data because Dennis and I have devoted over 30 years in cultivating trust-based assessments that actually give that starting point. So that's the kind of narrative, Andy, that's happening across the board in all facets of the world and leaders really seeing that trust is not something that sits over here. It's what's going to power everything that's most essential, collaboration, risk-taking, innovation, speed to market, trust in ourselves to make a move when we don't necessarily know everything and have everything, but we've got to take a step.

We've got to take a move because things are moving too fast. We can't wait.

[Andy Goram] (15:47 - 16:10)

Yeah. Dennis, this wake-up moment that we seem to have had, it's the context shift that's making people realize and stop taking perhaps this stuff for granted. It grinds my bones just as much as yours when people think about this stuff, this connection stuff as fluffy pink nonsense.

This is fundamental to how we operate at work.

Self-Trust In The Age Of AI And Constant Change

[Dennis Reina] (16:10 - 17:15)

Absolutely. And what's key in all of this is self-trust, that literally and figuratively people have to trust in themselves, not give it up to AI. Yes, you can use it to maybe massage your content or massage what you already, but you've got to start with who you are and what you know and what you're doing in the world and bring that gift, bring that knowledge and bring that talent forward and then use AI and other modalities to maybe put some polish on it.

But it literally comes to self-trust and that requires one to be self-aware, a deeper sense of self-awareness because self-trust requires that self-awareness to go deeper and broader into who we are and what we know and our gifts that we can give and provide to those with whom we are charged to serve.

[Andy Goram] (17:16 - 18:17)

I think this is the stuff we're going to get into. I'm sure AI will keep popping in and popping out of this conversation, but even recently this week, I read about the changes in organizational structure going on at Meta with their big reorganization and drive towards the AI. But the very act of how they're doing it and what they're doing is eroding trust within the engineers.

They're all second-guessing what's going on, looking over their shoulder, performance is going down. They're monitoring everything that they do so they can feed it into AI engines to build stuff. But in the act of gathering that data, the employees are feeling spied on, undermined, not trusted.

It's such a rich topic. I mean, we'll try and get to where we get to today to talk about it, but it's fascinating. I want to start at a basic though.

I feel like I've come to the original spring for trust today, so I feel like I'm talking to exactly the right people. How do you define trust as a starting point?

Defining Trust And Why It Must Be Earned Intentionally

[Dennis Reina] (18:17 - 19:52)

Well, first of all, I'll share what Webster's definition is of trust, and then I'll share our definition of trust building, which takes it much further. So Webster defines trust as the confident belief in the integrity, reliability, and intentions of others, as well as one's self. But with Michelle and I at Rayna Trust Building, we go a step further with trust building, because trust building is a transformative process, a transformative practice, actually, that involves intentional process of cultivating, strengthening, and sustaining trust through deliberate actions, how we behave, authentic communication, how we speak, and shared vulnerability.

Are we, in fact, opening up the kimono, so to speak, but literally and figuratively putting it out there, because we have to give trust in order to receive trust. We so often, and this was so true back when we first started this research and our practice, is people took trust for granted. Oh, well, I'm their leader.

Of course they trust me. You may get a title with that leadership, but you have to earn trust. Trust is earned step by step, moment by moment, every interaction, and it's a daily discipline.

[Andy Goram] (19:52 - 20:00)

Yes. It's not a demand commodity, Michelle, is it? It's not something you just...

I mean, people might want to demand it, but that's not how it works.

Why Expertise And Leadership Titles Don’t Automatically Create Trust

[Michelle Reina] (20:00 - 21:37)

It doesn't. And actually, Andy, it's a little bit of a trap sometimes that we've seen leaders fall into. It's a false assumption that a title or a subject matter expertise will earn us the trust of others, when in fact, a title or subject matter expertise might earn us some initial credibility, a certain degree of respect.

For a person to hold a particular title, they must know something or have accomplished something to earn that privilege. However, all of that can diminish in value if a person's behaviour is not actually experienced as trustworthy. So over time, or even almost instantly, actually, I actually can share a story about this, a specific example, how much a leader knows begins to not have as much value.

So an example, there was a leader who was hired into a senior position, and they were hired into this senior position for their subject matter expertise and their knowledge of the marketplace. This was financial services. And they were hired in as a high potential, and the role was stepping stone to the business unit role of CEO, because that business unit CEO was on the pathway to corporate position.

You get the gist of that, right, Andy?

[Andy Goram] (21:37 - 21:37)

Yeah.

[Michelle Reina] (21:38 - 23:07)

So the gentleman came in, and it was very gregarious and began having conversations with people, et cetera, et cetera. But over time, what people began to notice and what people began to chat about among themselves is the conversations were a one-way street. What he would talk about was his experience.

What he would talk about was his knowledge. What he would talk about was his expertise. What he would talk about was his point of view.

This was the narrative again and again and again over weeks, and it became the word on the street of how this guy sort of operated. So this continued to unfold over a very significant period of time as a pattern. So what began to show up in engagement scores was engagement scores began to decline.

People in the broader organization began to observe shifts in how people showed up. When the role became available for that promotional opportunity, this gentleman did not get it. And it is not because he didn't have the knowledge.

It's because he did not earn the trust of his people. He did not inspire a high-trust organization. Engagement began to decline, and so did the vibrancy and the performance of the group in which he led.

[Andy Goram] (23:07 - 23:54)

Yeah. And that's not an uncommon occurrence. I've come across people who, through the course of a program, have maybe come with a bit of an attitude and a chip on their shoulder.

And through the course of self-awareness, a bit of maybe self-discovery within that, and then I guess some real conscious intention, they've woken up to the fact that technically I might be amazing, but relationship-wise, I am derelict. I am not strong enough. And so whilst people might get what I'm trying to do, they're not going to come with me because I don't inspire that kind of connection.

And you need the two bits, right? The expertise is one contributory part of credibility, right? Just one contributory part.

Self-Discovery, Awareness And Intentional Behaviour

[Michelle Reina] (23:55 - 26:43)

You know, Andy, you just said something, a word in that it evoked another quick little example that just emerged a couple of days ago, but the phrase that you just used that I'd love to just chat about for a moment was self-discovery. Self-discovery. And I can't emphasize enough how central that is to trust because the truth is we all need trust and we all want trust.

And Dennis and I, our entire body of work is rooted in our fundamental belief that everybody you know, actually deserves it. Now, people need to trust their leaders, but leaders need to trust their people and leaders need trust as much as everybody else. Yet what's happening increasingly so in this world of disruption is there's a tendency for some of us to kind of sit and wait and watch and see how others are going to show up, what others are going to do.

We kind of want to take our cues from them when the truth of the matter is trust begins right here with me, with each and every one of us. And in this chat, you know, this whole aspect of raised awareness and choice in how we behave actually begins with self-discovery where leaders and by the way, you know, Andy, there are leaders who are in roles, but the truth of the matter is every single one of us are a leader of our life. Every one of us are leaders of our choices, of our thoughts and our belief.

So Dennis and I are finding that, you know, now, particularly more than ever, these momentary pauses that help leaders and their people just have a moment to introspect, have a moment to reflect, to go into a moment of self-discovery is so essential to us being able to be more aware of ourselves, more aware of others. And through that awareness, we can make conscious choices around our behaviour and be more tuned into the intentions behind those choices. Because when our choices are rooted in that intentionality, we're well poised to have behaviour that is an alignment with who we are and what our intentions are.

Then we're on a path. We're on a path of trust building. When we're losing sight, Andy, is when we're most vulnerable to trip ourselves up and cause trust to erode in ways that are unintentional, nevertheless, have the same impact.

[Andy Goram] (26:43 - 26:43)

Have the same impact.

[Michelle Reina] (26:43 - 26:48)

It's that degree of disconnection and everything begins to spiral down.

[Andy Goram] (26:48 - 27:04)

Yeah. There are some nasty people in the world, but most of us don't intend to cause harm or to make someone feel bad or whatever it was. It's often unintended consequences of poor behaviour or inappropriate behaviour or just a lack of self-awareness in those sort of situations.

[Michelle Reina] (27:04 - 27:06)

We still have to pay attention to it, right, Andy?

[Andy Goram] (27:07 - 27:56)

Of course, of course, of course. But I think this is the thing about the point you make about the self-reflection and the self-discovery. From my perspective, what I end up seeing in working with teams or individuals or groups, whatever it might be, the lack of time given to reflection.

Because I don't have time for that. We're busy. What's the point?

But it's amazing to me when someone does give and afford themselves the time to think about something and to use your word, Dennis, be vulnerable and honest about their thoughts or feelings and recognizing behaviour. That's when we start to see change happen, right? Either validate what's great and be more conscious of it or start to challenge the other stuff, right?

Why Trust Is Felt Emotionally And Physically

[Dennis Reina] (27:56 - 29:42)

Yes, because that's where the connection happens. It's through that vulnerability. It's through that heart connection.

And that's where it goes deeper than just the cerebral. I mean, trust is a very visceral kinesthetic. You feel it.

In fact, you feel it in your body before you even have words to express it or not, whether you trust somebody or a situation or a circumstance or not. I got that gut feeling, right? I mean, we literally give words to, I got that gut feeling.

And on the betrayal side, they feel it the same way. I felt like he stabbed me in the back, right? Very physical.

Or I got kicked in the stomach, whatever. I mean, those are common phrases that describe people either trusting or not or breaking trust with common little things, but they add up. In fact, from what we have found is 90% of the ways that trust are broken, it's not the big, bad, dark, nasty betrayals.

There's a minor, unintentional accumulation of minor things, people forgetting about certain meetings or leaving people out or not delivering his promise or not returning emails or phone calls or whatever. Anyway, but they add up and they accumulate. And then people literally check out, they walk out the door or worse yet, they stay.

And these days they call it the quiet quitting or they, in the old days, they called it the working wounded, right? But the result is the same.

Capacity For Trust And How Early Experiences Shape Us

[Andy Goram] (29:42 - 30:38)

Yeah. I think that to be true. One of the things I wanted to discuss with you before we get into some of the, I guess, the really helpful frameworks within your work and particularly within the art of trust building as a book, is this idea or this notion about our capacity for trust.

And I wonder whether you could kind of bring that to life for us, because naturally it feels to me some people are more open and can feel more trusting from the get go. I mean, I've done a lot of behavioural work and what have you, and naturally there are some people in the population who come to a relationship right off the bat going, hey, this is who I am, love me, please. And there are other guys who are sitting back going, hey, hey, hey, it is going to take 15 years for me to kind of like begin to trust you.

And it's going to be a slow process, but it'd be worth it in the end. So what is this thing about the capacity for trust? How does that work?

[Dennis Reina] (30:39 - 32:17)

Well, first of all, how we define capacity for trust is our willingness and our readiness to trust ourselves, which impacts us and influences our willingness and our readiness to trust others. And it literally starts the day we were born. So if we were born into a warm and nurturing environment and given care by either our parents or our guardians or whoever, our grandparents, whatever, but it was warm and and we literally start to cultivate, I mean, babies come out trusting, okay.

And we just continue to nurture that capacity for trust. All right. But if we had a very rough beginning and a rough environment, and maybe we weren't so fortunate to have caring, loving parents or guardians or whatever, take care of us and so forth, the opposite is true, that it literally, our capacity for trust will contract.

So you mentioned the person who is open and willing and here I am, and I love you, you love me, and I love the world, that kind of thing. That person probably had a very nurturing environment growing up. The other person, on the other hand, may have had a rough beginning or rough beginnings and came into the world with not so positive or not so caring and loving circumstances and situations.

[Michelle Reina] (32:17 - 36:09)

There's a developmental predisposition, Andy, that Dennis was just chatting about and giving a bit more expanded purview of where it all begins. Our capacity for trust, our readiness and willingness to trust others and trust ourselves begins in those early stages of life. However, it continues to unfold throughout our life and it will expand and it will contract within situational context.

And so there are some of us who may have grown up in situations where there was some vulnerability and therefore our trust within ourselves and others might begin to contract. Yet we can also, based on what's unfolding in that situation, begin to experience ways that it is safe to trust in others and safe to trust within ourselves. As an example, as a young child when I was living in Japan and my father would deploy off to the Vietnam War, I have vivid memories of kissing my father goodbye as a young little girl and being very aware that I did not know where he was going.

I did not know when he was coming home. I was very aware. I had a little voice in my mind that knew he may not come home because while it was before my time, I knew my father was a prisoner of a previous war.

I was aware that danger could happen. I might not see him. Well, at the same time, everybody that I lived with in community in a military base, we were all going through the same thing.

We were all kissing our father's goodbye. Very few women fought at that point in time, but there was this shared vulnerability. However, what I as a young child began to experience is we all turned to each other.

How Trust Expands And Contracts Throughout Life

So for me, throughout my life when I have felt vulnerability and my capacity for trusting in myself and others began to contract because sometimes there's situations where it's just appropriate. We don't ever talk about blind trust. I have those memories.

I have those experiences of turning to one another and how those relationships and those support helped us move through that period of time when our life was turned upside down and we were most vulnerable that I felt the deepest level of connection. I use those times to help me to understand today in the environment that we are all in. So it's not fixed.

There's predisposition. Yet we're growing human beings and through the choices that we make to grow in our discovery of ourselves, we can feel a contracted capacity yet still show up and behave in ways that are trustworthy and use that sense of we're not quite ready to extend trust, but we're willing to explore. We're willing to discover.

We're willing to ask some questions to help us understand what we need to understand because at the end of the day, for us to earn the trust of others, we have to be willing to extend our trust to them. It truly begins with us.

[Andy Goram] (36:09 - 36:23)

Yeah. I often refer to it as lowering my little water level. If you think about the old iceberg concept, it's about just lowering the water level.

Letting people see a little bit what's going underneath and showing that that's okay. That's okay to do that and encouraging other people to do it. Right.

[Dennis Reina] (36:24 - 37:07)

Also, another key point that Michelle inferred is that trust is a reciprocal process. Yes, you got to give it and it starts with each and every one of us. The difference between rats and humans is when rats will go down a tunnel and don't find no cheese, they don't go down that tunnel again or they don't go down too often.

With humans, we often tend to go down a tunnel and back and forth. If we are not receiving trust in return, even though we're giving trust, we may be much more guarded or much more reticent to provide that trust again. It's a two-way street.

It's a reciprocal process.

[Andy Goram] (37:08 - 38:02)

There are so many things that I want to talk to you about. I want to get into some of the stuff within the book, but particularly the three Cs because I think they're a huge principle for people to get their heads around. Before I wander into that, I just want to ask a really simple, I think it's a simple question.

There's this blend between the feeling we get of trust and the behaviour that maybe instills it or provokes it or maintains it, whatever it might be. There's clearly the behaviour and the feeling stuff working in tandem. In all of the work that you've done and you've worked with some incredible organizations, when you walk into an organization fresh, can you feel what it feels like to be in a high trust environment versus what it doesn't?

If you can, what are those signals that you're picking up on right from the get-go? What's triggering your spidey senses to say, this is great or this is work to do here?

[Michelle Reina] (38:03 - 41:14)

You know, Andy, there's a vibe. There's a vibe. There's a buzz.

What Dennis and I notice almost instantly is the attitude. It's a can-do attitude. It's a forward-thinking attitude.

It's a visible, we're turning to one another. We're pulling one another in. There's the visible respect for one another, but there's a synergy and it is palpable.

Anybody coming in is going to feel that. I remember working with an organization, and we know with some of the big enterprises, Andy, and the way they're structured, there's various units. A unit may be hundreds of people, thousands of people, but in this one story I'm sharing, this was a unit of about 1,500 people.

There was a reorg, a big reorg. Overnight, this 1,500 became 4,000. We all know some of the things that begin to unfold where we're coming in, but what was very fascinating for Dennis and I, and it became a very significant agenda on senior leadership docket, if you will, is the people that were joining the 1,500.

So, it wasn't the small 1,500 that went into the bigger piece. It was the bigger piece that came into the smaller piece. So, it was the 1,500 that now became 4,000.

Why Reflection And Vulnerability Strengthen Trust

Well, those new people noticed. They noticed that sensation. They felt that vibe.

It was something, you know, as teams began to restructure and et cetera, et cetera, what emerged was a level of interest and conversation about what is it that you guys have been doing? How did you get that? Can I learn that too?

I want some of that stuff. So, you know, it comes back to we all want it. So, when we're experiencing high trust, that vibe, that sensation, it pulls us in because it's energy expansive.

Trust has an energy field that is expansive and brings people in it because it's what we all want. And when trust is a little bit vulnerable, it becomes contracted and it's a little bit more difficult to get in. But when it's expansive, you know, it's bringing us in together.

So, this community begins to fold. Collaboration begins to, you know, just ripple. So, it is something we don't always see it, but we feel it.

And it's our behaviour that fosters that feeling.

[Andy Goram] (41:15 - 41:46)

And it's that intentional behaviour, right? It's being done with purpose, for a reason, and people are conscious of it. Dennis, in those high trust organizations, do you get a sense that there's a greater level of curiosity and openness?

And so, when it comes to sort of like working problems through and personal challenges, people challenging each other is taking in a very different regard to a low trust organization where any kind of challenge can be seen as like a personal attack. Do you get a real sense of that?

[Dennis Reina] (41:47 - 43:18)

Oh, absolutely. You know, in a high trust environment, as Michelle said, it's energy expansive. People feel safe to be open and candid and respectful.

And people are highly energized and they're willing to bring up concerns and issues and challenges and not take them personally, not take it as an affront. They speak openly and honestly and they put their heads together to work through the issues, concerns, and challenges. And they collaborate across boundaries, okay?

And when they need it, they ask for help, right? And they assume positive intent. They don't say, oh, he's trying to get my job or he's trying to look good in order to promote himself, et cetera.

But they also hold each other accountable. So, it's not just looking good and so forth. They hold each other accountable and they get the job done.

And it's very highly productive. Yet, in low trust organizations or in low trust environments, people feel and act guarded, all right? Don't feel safe.

They don't feel safe to bring up concerns, issues, and challenges. They literally withhold information. They have the meeting after the meeting, the one they have in the hallway or down by the water cooler.

That's after the meeting. And they protect themselves. They blame others.

[Michelle Reina] (43:19 - 43:20)

And they- Very judgmental.

[Dennis Reina] (43:21 - 43:35)

Or, and very judgmental. They avoid the hard conversations. And they spend so much of their energy in managing the politics rather than doing the work they were hired to do.

[Andy Goram] (43:35 - 43:48)

I suspect, again, thinking about earlier language in this conversation, you see a lot more victim behaviour. So, things are being done to me as opposed to, hey, I am contributing and I am part of this.

[Michelle Reina] (43:48 - 45:10)

You know, the other aspect when there's that presence of the high trust and the energy that we've been talking about, people actually help one another become aware. You know, there's that, I got your back. I got your back.

Because there's that acknowledgement that, you know, we're never done with trust, Andy. It's not a one and done. You and I talked about that a couple of weeks ago is why our 30-minute connect went for over an hour because we just, we got just so into that ourselves that wouldn't it be nice if we could do A, B, Z and just, you know, okay, we got it and we're going to take the rest of life off.

The Hidden Cost Of Leaving Trust To Chance

But we can never take it for granted because circumstances change and we change. So, what Dennis and I love the most about our work is when we can support leaders to be leading, trust-building in their organization. So, these things that we've been chatting about is that, you know, it becomes the norm to have this process of self-discovery.

We are here to help one another grow in our awareness. We're helping each other practice these behaviours. I got your back.

I'm going to work hard to suspend my judgment. Do they always get it right? No, because we're human beings.

But, you know, we're in it together. And with lower trust, it's a bit more, you know, kind of fighting for our own survival.

[Andy Goram] (45:11 - 46:40)

I was going to say, it's that collegiate versus individual kind of vibe, right? I mean, that's in essence, I guess, what we will see, what we will feel. Okay, everyone.

Andy here. We're going to take a break at this point. There was no way one episode was going to be enough to cover all the things I wanted to ask Dennis and Michelle.

So, this is a good place to end part one. In part two, which we will release in just a couple of weeks, we'll take a practical look at trust-building using some of the key frameworks from the I can't wait until then. I'll put a link to the book and how to find the rainers in the show notes.

I promise you, episode two is packed full of useful, practical insights on how to build trust and transform team and organization performance, and even our own personal relationships too. So, don't miss out on part two. Catch you later.

So, that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like, comment, and subscribe.

It really helps. I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside Podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.

Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.