• Andy Goram

Episode 16: Building A Brand With Employee Voices

Nowadays we rarely purchase anything before checking out the reviews. Why? Because we believe they will give us the real, reliable, honest inside track on whether we're about to make a great purchase or help us avoid a terrible mistake. The same is happening when it comes to job-hunting, for the same reasons. Checking out websites like Glassdoor, to see what employees really think, feel and say about a business is becoming more and more popular.


So a company's employer brand has perhaps never been more important, and getting recognised as one of "The Best Places To Work" can do wonders for talent recruitment, and reducing recruitment costs. But you don't get the accolades and the benefits, if you don't deliver for your existing employees and actually deliver the things that create a "Great Place To Work" and then encourage them to openly proclaim what it's really like to work there.


In episode 16 of the Sticky From The Inside podcast, your host Andy Goram, talks to Caroline Cuthbertson, from Sky Betting & Gaming, a company who recently made it onto Glassdoor's Top 50 Places To Work in The UK, who looks after the marketing strategy for their employer brand and is well placed to reveal what it really takes to make it onto such a list and what the real benefits of that are.


This is a full transcript of their conversation, which you can also listen to here.


A blonde lady and a be-spectacled man with a microphone talking about employer brand
Caroline Cuthbertson (left) and Andy Goram (right) discuss using employee voice in creating a strong employer brand

00:00:00 Andy Goram

Hello, and welcome to sticky from the inside. The Employee Engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier competition, smashing consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn their lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tons more success for everyone.


This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that. Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.


So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.


00:01:11 Andy Goram

OK, if we're lucky enough, we can recall what it feels like to work at a truly great place, where everybody there gets what they're there to do, knows exactly how they contribute to the overall success of the business, and it just feels like everyone is pulling in the same direction. It can feel amazing.


Nowadays, there are awards for the best places to work. From established places like The Sunday Times best companies to work for, and other awards like Glassdoor's Top 50 Best Places to work in the UK. And also, you can get certification for this kind of stuff from places like “Great place to work”. But what does it practically take to get on such a list, and what are the benefits of achieving such status for the people within it, the business and the employer brand?


Well, today I'm joined by Caroline Cuthbertson from Sky Betting and Gaming, a company who recently made it onto that Glassdoor list as one of the best places to work in the UK.

Caroline looks after the marketing strategy for their employer brand and uses market research to influence the ways in which to position Sky Betting and Gaming is a great place to work and authentically inspire talent to work there. And she also uses all the feedback from employees to help guide decision-making going forward. So Caroline is very well placed to help us with today's questions. So, without furthermore ado from me. Hi Caroline, how are you doing?


00:02:41 Caroline Cuthbertson

Hi. Hi yeah, I'm great thank you. Really pleased to be on my first podcast, so thank you for having me.


00:02:46 Andy Goram

Your first podcast! How very exciting and that you chose “Sticky From The Inside” for that. That's great, brilliant! So, Caroline, we met on a live webinar, recently. OK, we were talking about things like employee voice, fantastic. But what have you been up to recently? What's sort of taking your time at the moment?


00:03:08 Caroline Cuthbertson

Well, I was thinking about this before and there's quite a few different things. I'll pull out a couple so, a big part of my role is supporting our recruitment team with any roles that we have live in the market. So, I've recently launched a recruitment marketing campaign for our software engineers. So, I launched that in May. It's going really well. Some really strong positive results, so that's really exciting. So yesterday I just pulled together all of the results from May, so that was great. And something really exciting that I'm working on is launching our first employer brand Tracker. So, this is going to give us much more understanding of our external audiences. How do they perceive working for us? How aware are there Sky Betting and Gaming, and what are the reasons for people rejecting us? And we'll be able to track this on a much regular basis, so every sort of six months, and will it be much more KPI driven. Thinking about how are we shifting the dial. How are we improving our awareness, or whatever it is that we've... I've identified as areas that we want to improve? So that's going to be a really big milestone for our employer brand externally, to launch that and I'm really proud that I'm doing that with our in-house market research team. So yeah, that's super exciting. So I've been working on that at the moment.


00:04:32 Andy Goram

It sounds like you're really sort of upping the stakes if you like, without wanting to use a gambling pun, in dealing with that employer brand, right? Taking it really seriously.


00:04:42 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah, it's all about getting feedback from... we’re a business that just loves to receive feedback and whether that's externally we want to understand how people feel about working for us to what are those reasons to not consider us? How can we improve that, and obviously, internally, we're very focused on how do we make sure that we build a great place to work? So yeah, research is at the foundation of every bit of strategy for me.


00:05:10 Andy Goram

Yeah. Well, you're in a good place to start talking about what makes a really great place to work. We like nothing more than to talk about this topic on this, on this podcast. And listen, let's be honest, it's doubly interesting, I think, with the company that you work for. Now, in my past, you know, I worked for a gambling business for a long time. I didn't ever wake up one day and go, “You know what I really want to work in gambling.” It just kind of happened. And when you work for a company like that it comes with a lot of uneducated stigma, I think, you know, people have impressions about what gambling companies are like, so to have with me today, somebody looks after the employer brand of a gaming company that's just made it onto one of the UK's best places to work list, I think is a great, great thing for us to sort of talk through, because there's extra things you probably have to deal with your employer brand in that context, right?


00:06:04 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah, definitely. That's made me feel, I mean, I always feel proud to work here, but generally am extremely proud to be part of a business. We do have challenges. It makes my role really exciting. So yeah, it comes with its challenges, but that's what we all want, isn't it? We want a challenge. We want to see that we can make a difference. Yeah, there's lots of great things that come along with being part of our industry and things that we need to change. And that's great to be a part of that change. And so yeah.


00:06:34 Andy Goram

That's a great attitude and I love the word or the words that you're proud to work here because that's a great signal that you really do work for a great place. You know if people are openly saying, yeah, like I'm really, really, proud to work here, that's a pretty good signal, right? That's a good place to start. So yeah, this topic we're talking about today. Let's start with this award. Tell us about that. You've just recently kind of achieved this status. What is it? What does it mean? How did it happen? Tell us the story.


00:07:03 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah, so yes Glassdoor top 50 Best places to work. So, we ended up getting on this award. It's through advocacy and it's all about having our people really give insights into what it's like to work at Sky Betting and Gaming, and we've not paid to be a part of this award and I think that in my eyes, makes this award even more special because it is literally down to our people who share what it's like to work here, and there's various different measures and ways that Glassdoor will analyze all the companies and their reviews. But ultimately, it's all about the quantity of the reviews that you have. The quality. So, in terms of quality, the reviews need to be vivid. They need to explain and give insights about what's great about working there, but also things that maybe aren't so great. Because we're not absolutely perfect. There's always going to be... people will have experiences that aren’t brilliant, and so having that quality that will give somebody a real insight is important. And then the consistency, which I think is really a really critical point. It's not just something that you can, just, you know, send an email out to the whole business, say send your reviews in, we just want you to give us all your reviews. Because that just feels completely forced, and that's not how you get on the list, it's about consistently finding those ways to prompt people to leave a review, not just to "DL” the whole business and full and almost forced people, just leave a really great review, because you're just not going to get anywhere. And I think for Sky Betting and Gaming we always want feedback from people. We have pulse surveys that go out through the business internally to find out how they feel about working here. So, it feels right to do it.

You know the Glassdoor reward is that, but for an external audience to view that feedback. So yeah, but it's felt absolutely amazing when we won the award and the buzz... I think the biggest thing that I really loved was seeing how proud everybody else was to share the news in the business.


00:09:15 Andy Goram

I can imagine that was a great feeling, right?


00:09:18 Caroline Cuthbertson

It was great. Yeah we shared on our internal channel and we made a piece of creative that people could all just like copy and share on their social channels and it just absolutely exploded. Everybody was so proud and they were sharing their own stories about working here and that just shows the benefit of this because, again, you're getting people sharing their story, their authentic story, starting to show a different side to Sky Betting & Gaming. We're not just a gambling company we have... we're so much more than that. We're a brilliant place to work. We're exciting. We help you grow. There's so many things I could reel off about how amazing it is. You do start to see why people love it and that's so... that just really enforces why we got the award as well. Because you see people sharing anything proud. So it shows how authentic the recognition was for us, yeah.


00:10:12 Andy Goram

Well, I think that's fantastic. I think the words ”authentic” and “proud” are brilliant. If we just take a pause for some people, perhaps listen to this who aren't fully aware of what Glassdoor is or, does. I mean this is effectively a business-focused employee feedback site, right? Where employees are asked a whole bunch of questions about leadership, the company, what goes on, what's good, what's bad, there's an exit interview process. There's all sorts of things in there that aim, I guess, to give a real view of what it's like to work for a specific company. And all these reviews, all these statements, all these comments are out in the open, right? This is a... it's a public forum. There's nowhere to hide there, and I don't think you get to get in there and edit those reviews, delete the ones you don't like so it's, I think that word authentic is a great one to use because it's about as real as it gets.


00:11:11 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah 100%. Yeah, can't remove anything. You can't delete, you can't. Yeah, it's all there. It's very transparent, so yeah.


00:11:19 Andy Goram

And because it is transparent, if you go back to what you said, if you did send out the response template “Here, please writes us a nice review, and by the way, if you can't write us a review, here are some words, we'd like you to use.” That's just gonna show, that's gonna show like as clear as day. In fact, when you do go through Glassdoor, the really good companies respond to every piece of feedback personally and individually. The really bad ones on there you could... it's just a templated response and it stinks, and it stands out a mile off. But that's my own pet peeve, right? We don't want to get into that. So, what inspired the company to sort of go after this in the 1st place? is it... Have you been working on that platform, on Glassdoor, for a long time? Is it a recent thing? Where's it all come from?


00:12:09 Caroline Cuthbertson

So, yeah, we have a company page on there. We've worked with Glassdoor, but I think more than that, we know the influence that has on our external talent and attracting new talent into the business. It's essentially the Trip Advisor for jobs isn't it?

00:12:30 Andy Goram

Absolutely.


00:12:31 Caroline Cuthbertson

You can look at that honest insights and we know that we want to give people that honest look. We internally get an honest look at how our people are feeling, so, we want to reflect that externally so people can make the right decision. Because we might not be the right place for you. And that's OK, but we might be for a lot of other people, and that's so that's great as well. So, we know it has an influence on people’s decision to apply for a job and consider us, so that's why it's important for talent attraction. I think, as I said earlier, we have such a... it's always on, feedback is so important to us internally, so encouraging honest feedback is part of who we are. We want feedback and so Glassdoor fits in really well because it is literally asking for feedback, but something that will be shown externally so it fits well within what we want internally from our people, so that's what inspired it. A few different things.


00:13:32 Andy Goram

Well, I mean we met on that Engage For Success webinar and the topic was “Employee Voice”, right? Which we know is a proven pillar of employee engagement, right? And so, that employee voice coming through on something like this platform is really important. But the mechanics of making employees feel confident enough to leave feedback is a much deeper thing. So what's been behind the business’s push for getting that employee voice out there listened to and acted upon?


00:14:08 Caroline Cuthbertson

So, I can't take the credit for this. So, Clive, who is our Head of Talent Acquisitions, has done an absolutely brilliant job at finding those touchpoints in the employee lifecycle that can help to prompt a review. We want people to leave feedback when they're still in the business, as well as when they've obviously left, so it's important to get that balance. We don't just want to be full of reviews of people who maybe left the business, but also people that are currently still here. So finding those yeah, those touchpoints is really important. And as I said, we've done that throughout the year. It's not that we've decided, “Right! We need to just drive as many reviews. We haven't got many reviews from this particular set of people, so we need to drive this.” It's very, very natural and not... we're not targeting specific groups of people, we just want to get as many varieties as possible. Because then it'll just. It'll just look completely contrived. Then we don't want to... I don't want to attach to Glassdoor, just purely to recruitment drive. It's not for that. This is a long-term opportunity to build our brand and to build the perceptions that people have about working for us, through the employee voice. So, it's not about using Glassdoor as a tactic to help with the recruitment drive, if that makes sense?


00:15:26 Andy Goram

No, look 100%. I mean, you don't get the good reviews unless good things are happening in the company, right? So, it's part of a wider strategy of creating a great place to work and driving employee engagement, right? And you don't get the results without putting in the work and so, there must be a whole bunch of work behind driving those feelings of trust and empathy and nowadays, wellbeing, all wrapped up in really strong communication. So, I would imagine that's in your kit bag as a Marketing Manager, right?


00:16:04 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah, so as I've alluded to earlier, we have a full server that goes out of the business to understand what people are feeling and where are those areas that maybe we need to really focus our attention on, and I sit within the wider people team and our role is to ultimately make sure that we are creating the best place that will work for people. So if we know that we really need to focus on wellbeing, we will, we will action on that feedback and we will improve our offering, change it, whatever we need to do, within reason, to make sure that our people... we start to see positive trends in certain areas where we may be seeing drop-offs.

Obviously, COVID has put lots of... brought attention to different areas of the employee experience, particularly as I said around wellbeing. What can we do that really makes sure that people have that break? They have that work-life balance. So, we've done so much, we've implemented so many different strategies and initiatives to bring that to life. And we've started to see that massively improve. So, I think our people know that we listen. And we openly every Friday, or I don't know if we;ve changed that to every fortnight, but we have a live Q&A with our leadership team. People come in, they ask questions, you know we answer them. We then take it away. We're constantly open to people giving us feedback. Telling us how they feel. We don't just ask for it and not do anything. We do action on it. And I think that builds up that trust.


00:17:38 Andy Goram

Oh my goodness, I mean that is so important. I can't tell you the number of surveys now that I either help companies with or have reviewed in the past, and they're all done with the best intentions, but you... But people wonder why the changes they seek haven't happened, right? And there are multitude reasons, but some of the biggest stuff is right there in the verbatim comments saying, “Well, there's no point me really feeling back because nothing ever happens and there's no actions taken, so why bother?” And I think this is the thing that too many companies seem to get wrong. They're great, they set these things up, they ask the questions. They answer the questions they want to answer, and then kind of just push aside and ignore the others. Maybe some of the tougher ones, or maybe the ones that they're not going to take action on, but it's just as important to go back and say, “Well, we're not going to do that. And here's the reason why”, right? Because you can't do everything everybody wants, that's just chaos. But if you open the door to feedback, you've got to respond to it. So it sounds like that's a really important thing for you as a business.


00:18:47 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah, it really is.


00:18:50 Andy Goram

So what's been the benefits, so far, for the employer brand? How's it affected it?


00:18:57 Caroline Cuthbertson

I mean, there's lots of different things we can track to see the impact, so things like, the impact it's had on our company page on Glassdoor. More people seeing it, visiting it, interest in it, reading our reviews Has definitely been clear since we've announced the award. Our organic searches, people... again, people finding us, knowing about us, it puts us on the map a little bit, to people that probably wouldn't even know that we're an employer. Given the industry we're in and the people that we attract in terms of talent, and they might not even use our products, so they might not know about us at all, and then they suddenly think “Oh, I didn't even know.” I didn't even know about Sky Betting and Gaming before I joined. I had no idea. I sort of had an awareness, but I just never even considered it. But I saw the job and I was like, yeah, absolutely. And that was it. But it puts us on the map and puts us there in front of people that, just probably wouldn't even know much about us and goes back to what we're saying earlier; there's challenges around our industry.

I don't want to dwell on it too much, because we are where we are and we're proud and we're proud of what we do from a safer gambling standpoint. We know that we do everything we can to keep our customers safe and we're working hard to continue that. But these awards and the reviews and the employee voice start to show more about who we are as a place to work and pull out key associations, great brand associations. So, I believe that this will impact on yeah, those perceptions. The amount of people, who’re more aware of us now and would probably start to consider us and start to learn a little bit more about us. Maybe start to follow our social channels. We've seen more people following us on LinkedIn and engaging with this on our channel, so it definitely has a real domino effect on people thinking, “Oh! Sky Betting & Gaming? I'm not really sure. Let me start to learn a little bit more about them and let me see what people are saying about them.”


00:21:00 Andy Goram

Well, it gives you an opportunity to share the company’s values and what you stand for as a business as opposed to the betting products, right?


00:21:03 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah. Yes, it does.


00:21:09 Andy Goram

Because I think this is the important thing of an employer brand, because what you're trying to do is you're trying to get that match up of employee values and company values. Because if the mindset, or values match up, you've got a much better opportunity to have a long, fruitful relationship between employee and company. And so, I think businesses that take employer brand seriously, like you guys are doing, are putting themselves in a much better shop window, because people are understanding who they're coming to work for, what they stand for, and they can work out before they turn up, whether there's a match.


00:21:50 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah, yeah.


00:21:51 Andy Goram

So, I would have thought that some of the benefits you guys see would be, I guess, less attrition rate of new employees who come in and go, “Ooo! What’s this?”, and retention improves and recruitment costs must go down as a result. This is because you're already saying you're acting like that Tractor-beam, dragging people towards you, because you're telling an interesting story through your employer brand.


00:22:16 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah, it's definitely yeah, it absolutely has impacted on the people coming in. They know, they think they know what they expect and then they come in and it actually meets their expectations. And we do survey new starters when they come in. See how they feel about working for us and then have a look at that in six-months' time. Are they still feeling that? And we've definitely noticed that is consistent. We're not selling. We not here to sell this dream that we don't all live and live and breathe. It's so important that we focus on ensuring that our people that are here currently, have the best place. They feel that they live our values that they are an authentic representation of what it’s really like to be here, before we then go out with a big all singing and dancing campaign about working here because that just doesn't feel right. We shouldn't be focusing on our external audiences, until we know internally that's what people feel, because our people can spot a mile off when we’re absolutely... we say we have this amazing whatever, and we don't, or they don't have this experience, so that's super important and it yeah, that doesn't impact on people wanting to stay here 'cause they know that this is what they thought it would be and more, hopefully.


00:23:38 Andy Goram

No, I think it's true. I mean, I read a good piece. I wouldn't say I necessarily agreed with everything that, it said, but there was a good piece in the Harvard Business Review recently and it gave like 12 tips of what it takes to become a great place to work. And some of those were material things, which is where I sort of... I don't fall out with it, but I think it's a bit deeper than some of those things.


00:24:06 Caroline Cuthbertson

Like what? What did they say?


00:24:08 Andy Goram

Well, I think I mean, look, first up, it covers the table stakes stuff of paying... paying everybody a living wage, right? I mean you gotta have the table stakes and what anybody says about engagement, if you're not getting paid properly for it, you've got a problem. But you've got to make... I think you've got to make employment more than just the money. Or having said that, and, another piece in HBR talked about 8 different types of employees, and there are guys that look, the cheque is the cheque is the cheque and that's what they work for. They're never going to get more engaged, right? But this piece?


It really talked about making the switch as an employer from trying to get more out of people, to investing in them and their wellbeing, and their growth and trying to address the four core needs, the physical, emotional, spiritual and mental in their approach to things. So, trying to provide things that covered off all four of those states. But, you know there were things in there like, I mean, you can tell it was an American piece, you know provided gym, a well-equipped gym, so people can focus on fitness. Yeah, and that's not entirely practical for everyone, but I get the kind of mindset. Provide healthy food, including the vending machines. Yep, great, but again not entirely practical for everybody, but in general I agree with the piece because it's talking about the deeper effects. The things like two-way reviews between employee and supervisor or manager. So, as well as you having that conversation about how your performance is and how you're feeling personally, and what you can do to, kind of improve and grow, you get the opportunity to feedback to your supervisor on things like, well, you know, perhaps you're not as good as this as you are. I think that's really, really helping or if there's some other things that you could help me by doing XY&Z, it's interesting piece. I'll attach it to the show notes, but from your perspective, and you mentioned COVID right and wellbeing. It's the topic we can't avoid really talking about. What are some of the things that your employees have been saying have challenged them in the, I don't know, year, 18 months and how have you guys had to respond to those things?


00:26:26 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah, wellbeing we identified pretty early on. Well, we we sort of knew that this was going to be a real challenge, particularly for those employees who maybe live on their own, and they're completely cut off now from working life. We very quickly implemented a communication strategy that brought in a lot of the fun, engaging activities that brings to life a bit our culture in, you know, in the living rooms of everybody. We called it “Good vibes, for the tribes”. So, we did some really fun online like games and lots of different things. We knew that what is important to our people is still having a voice and still being able to know what's happening in the business. Not being so cut away when we're in the office we had regular... I mean, I was only in the office for five months, but I could see immediately the impact of, you know we have regular pitcher pitch presentations and we could hear what's happening in the trading team. What's happening in gaming and bet, and what's going on and we know that that's still important, to feel connected to what's happening in the business as well as feeling connected to your colleagues. So we kept running our regular pitch presentations virtually, live Q&A's as I've mentioned with our leadership team so that our people could still see our leadership team. Come and feel like they had a voice and they can be heard and be listened to.

I guess it still fits in with wellbeing, but work-life, the work-life balance element, the flexibility. I feel that at the very beginning stages of lockdown people felt like they still couldn't really break away. They almost needed a bit a little bit of permission. And we were like, “You don’t need permission. Please do whatever you need to do to work around your day”, and that constant... the leadership team have done a brilliant job are always sending out really strong messages about, you know, “Please don't be tied to your desk. Go away, work around your schedules. Do whatever you can to make sure that it fits around you and your other commitments, now that home life has become work as well.” We still need to keep other things going, even in lockdown, making sure people feel like they can still grow, they can still develop, they can still learn.


And another thing that we've noticed, that's really important, is showing what we do to give back to our communities and how we support our local communities. So a lot of our communications have been around how we... at the moment, our charity partner of the year is McMillan, so we've been doing a lot of fund-raising activities through lockdown. But just sharing like how do we make an impact on our communities? And how do we give back has also been something that’s called out as quite important. There’s probably lots of other things, but yeah.


00:29:29 Andy Goram

No, I mean it's amazing 'cause. I mean, trying to keep the culture alive during the last 12-18 months has been such a challenge for so many places and you know there have been as many success stories as there have failures to that count, so it's interesting to hear the sort of range of activities that you've been doing and the response from the employees to those activities has been positive?


00:29:52 Caroline Cuthbertson

Oh yeah, really positive, particularly around the leadership team and their presence. It's been well received and having those opportunities to just... even though sometimes it they post anonymous questions, but just being able to post a question to somebody who they probably wouldn't really necessarily have a meeting with, (but) just being able to like see their question be answered is great. And our people have seen all of the great work that our people team have been doing to focus on, like, to agree a clear wellbeing strategy, personal growth. So yeah, it's been received really well and we've been able to see an increase in the sentiment around those key areas. But we're still tracking them. Things can dip and we're constantly tracking it so that we can always pivot and change and improve the ways that yeah, where we need to.


00:30:44 Andy Goram

I think that's a really important point. Because it's a constant job. It's not a, once every six months we pull back the curtains and have a little look inside and see what's happening. And then we do a survey and then we make some comments and put in some bean bags and some lovely healthy food in the vending machine and the world, and the world is a happy place. It's much more constant than that, and I think that the very fact that the leadership team are present and are open and will feedback and that they do that over a consistently long period of time, that's what builds that trust between the leadership team and the employees, right? That knowledge that they are there, they are open. The question is going to get answered it's a, it's a much deeper thing than the sort of dip in dip out thing, and that's what breeds, I think, that sense of trust and empathy, and all this so really important. You've mentioned so many different things that you've been going and doing to sort of drive this feeling of engagement and being a great place to work. I mean we, I personally could talk about this forever, but people have stuff to do and I can't, as much as I'd love them to, they can't sit about listening to my podcast forever, so we got to the part in the show that I like to call sticky notes. And what I'm looking for here, Caroline, is three simple takeaways that you could fit on a post-it note that people can take away from the end of the show and think about how they could improve their employee brand or improve employee voice in their business going forward. So, if you were to leave behind three sticky notes, what would your sticky notes be?


00:32:29 Caroline Cuthbertson

OK, so one of them would be build your brand from inside out. Think about improving the experience of your own people before you go out with a singing and dancing recruitment campaign. Bringing bring your people along the journey with you when you're running these campaigns to attract talent. So make sure that they're authentic.


And the third one, build a place of trust that people can feel that their voice gets heard. People want to be heard. They want to be listened to, so make sure that you give people an environment where they have trust that what they say does get heard.


00:33:13 Andy Goram

There's three, I think, succinct messages in there. Firstly, building a brand from the inside out and being authentic in the way that you do that is important. Because then people really get to see what the business is about, not just the product, right? It's what it's like inside. That's what's really important. 'cause that's where people are going to be working right?

That second piece about having authentic campaigns and putting your people in the middle of them.


00:33:34 Caroline Cuthbertson

Yeah.


00:33:39 Andy Goram

That's great. And then the third one about, I mean, you could leave it at, just listen. Because that's strong enough, right? But listen and trying to build a place of trust where people feel that their feedback is listened and actioned on, I don't think that's a bad post it note, so I love them. Three great sticky notes there, Caroline really good. No one will ever know this was your first podcast. I'm very, very honoured that you chose Sticky From The Inside to do that on.


Thank you for all of your candour, and your insight. And it's been absolutely lovely to talk to you. Thanks so much for your time today. And yeah, good luck with everything.


00:34:20 Caroline Cuthbertson

Thank you very much.


00:34:22 Andy Goram

Ok. Right, you take care. Well, everybody, that was Caroline Cuthbertson, from Sky Betting & Gaming. If you'd like to find out more about Caroline and what she's up to and any of the bits that we've talked about in the show, please check out the show notes.


00:34:38 Andy Goram

So, that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something, maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forwards.


If you have, please like comment and subscribe, it really helps.


I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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