Episode 2: Big E, Little E
00:00:10 Andy Goram
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the inside. The Employee Engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition, smashing consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host. Andy Goram.
00:00:29 Andy Goram
Research says that 65% of your employees give you their time, but not their best effort or ideas. The sad thing is that that number hasn't changed in decades, so what's going wrong? Well, I'm on a mission to help businesses and their employees get much more out of their working relationship, and create tonnes more mutual success.
00:00:51 Andy Goram
This podcast is here for all those who believe and want that too, and for those who'd like a little help and guidance in achieving that. Each episode will cover the topics that can help you create what I call a stickier business. The sort of business where people love to work; where they not only say good things about you, but stay longer, work harder, and absolutely thrive in the environment you create. And where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you fancy listening to a podcast that tries to take the tricky out of being sticky and that might just help you light the fires within your people and propel your business to untold success, then please download and subscribe to the sticky from the Inside podcast and join the stickiest conversation on the air today.
00:01:54 Andy Goram
So here we are then, episode two of my sticky from the inside Podcast and today I have my first ever guest with me and that honour which, let's be honest, might be a little premature and we'll see how the episode goes, is the lovely Karen Turton. Now Karen is the learning and development director for Transition, a company that specializes in the development of softer skills for multi-site managers and Leaders of tomorrow. Now with a background of working for high NRG businesses in hospitality, retail and leisure. And famous brands like Nando’s. Plus being a self-confessed serial entrepreneur, she knows what it takes to inspire and engage a workforce and create winning teams who go on to achieve amazing results. And as we'll find out later, she has some controversial views on performance metrics and how relevant they are today. Hello, Karen.
00:02:50 Karen Turton
Hello Andy, thank you for having me.
00:02:53 Andy Goram
Well, thank you for joining me. It's so lovely to have you here. I think before we go on there are two things I need to sort of highlight or confess, really, if that's OK?.
00:03:02 Andy Goram
Firstly, we met each other a long time ago when we worked in a big, I'm not going to say the name at this point, but a big pub and drink company.
00:03:10 Karen Turton
A very long time ago.
00:03:12 Andy Goram
Yeah, there might be some legal issues where we were both basically paid to visit pubs, talk to staff and customers and have a good time. And you were a trainer and let's just say I was. I was a promotions guy. Promotions guy, it’s too much to say marketing at that stage of my career I think and mad times they were too.
00:03:31 Karen Turton
They were very, very mad, very memorable and very mad.
00:03:36 Andy Goram
I’m glad you could remember them. I struggle at times and maybe that's just embarrassment. I don't. I don't know. But, secondly, and perhaps more importantly, you've just been nominated for a National Innovation in Training award.
00:03:47 Karen Turton
00.03:48 Andy Goram
00:03:49 Karen Turton
Yeah! I know it's super exciting and I have. Yeah, I've got to prepare for my judging panel and do my best to make sure I put my best self forward, so yeah, I'm super excited.
00:04:03 Andy Goram
So, what that all that about then? What is all that about?
00:04:06 Karen Turton
Its their national innovation in Training awards is NITA. Run by the BII (British Institute of Innkeeping) so an industry-leading organisation who look to find the best and the brightest and the most innovative in the training, L&D, people development space in the industry.
00:04:26 Andy Goram
You match up to that then.
00:04:28 Karen Turton
I'm just , it's a little bit exciting it’s 2 years out of sort of stepping away from the corporate career and being this self-confessed serial entrepreneur, which I am, and loving it, to actually, you know, have been nominated for such an accolade, regardless of whether I win, or not, is hugely, hugely, It's just exciting, just really excited.
00:04:51 Andy Goram
Oh well, I'm chuffed for you mate. That's great.
And I'm sure it's very well deserved.
I've got you here today then, to talk about like employee engagement, all things work, culture and what have you yet. So, let me start off with a bit of a statement and see where you come. So, well, I've always thought a key part of engagement is that generally engaged employees like to feel that they're growing professionally and personally, right whilst they're at work, but is that real? What's the reality, Karen?
00:05:22 Karen Turton
I think it's absolutely real. The days of financial incentive, money being the main motivator for work are well behind us. It is well documented that the younger generations are looking for more purposeful organisations to work for. They're looking for things that make a difference. They're looking to work in environments where they get to learn something.
00:05:50 Karen Turton
So, personal learning, personal growth, personal development, whatever you want to call it are only increasing. They're only becoming more important.
00:06:00 Karen Turton
And I think you know we're in a space where, when you and I were coming up in the industry 20 years ago, you were really fortunate if you went on one of the Disney initiatives or the big Jim Sullivan conferences and they were high ticket items. You know your organisation had to pay a healthy fee to get you on one of those for personal development.
00:06:23 Andy Goram
Let's be really clear, Karen. I did not get to go on any of those, right?
00:06:27 Karen Turton
No, I didn't get to go on the Disney one either.
00:06:30 Andy Goram
I would’ve love to, but no.
00:06:32 Karen Turton
I know well, it’s really revered and still there today, but I think you know when we were coming up through, personal development was getting to go to some of these conferences being put forward for some of these big awards programmes or masterclasses. And all of those are still really relevant today. But the industry in the environment is much more around what can organisations do themselves internally, to help upskill everybody with not just business skills, technical skills as I call them, but also life skills you know and this personal development I talk, I talk an awful lot at the moment about soft and hard skills.
00:07:18 Andy Goram
Ok. Tell me a little bit more.
00:07:20 Karen Turton
Well, the easiest way is we've all heard. We've all heard Forrest Gump saying, life is like a box of chocolates. Well, so too is organization, you've got this box of chocolates with hard centers and soft centers.
00:07:35 Andy Goram
Oh, you mean the people in there are…?
00:07:37 Karen Turton
Oh no! No no. You're not going to get me to name any hard centres of this
00:07:43 Andy Goram
00:07:44 Karen Turton
But yeah, no, I'm not going there. Hard centers being the technical skills that we give people when they join
00:07:52 Andy Goram
00:07:53 Karen Turton
All throughout, process procedure, and the soft skills are those personal attributes, the behaviors that help people interact in the workplace. And actually there is such a big, you know there is a huge need and I think you said, you know I, I have some controversial views which we'll touch on, but there's a really big need for organisations to focus more on those soft centres than the hard centres.
00:08:21 Andy Goram
OK, so like in your space in multi-site hospitality-focused businesses, right? Jim Sullivan’s made a good living in that space talking about the keys to multi site leadership, right? Is that message still relevant today or is is it slightly changed? 'Cause I would maybe stick him in your technical box? A bit.
00:08:44 Karen Turton
Absolutely, and if I think about an example from one of Jim Sullivan’s Sessions, and I remember it clearly to this day, and I used to train it into people. You know, one of his fundamentals was, you know, “Watch the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves”, and he used to talk about, you know, not throwing the teaspoons in the food bin when you clearing the tables. Well, you know. Yes, great. But actually, where does the mindset piece come? The behavior piece come in that actually enables, you know the boys and girls who are clearing the tables, rather than just hurling, you know, the stuff that's left on the plate in the food bin. And yes, these days.
00:09:30 Karen Turton
We recycle and we separate it and all of that, but actually, how do we help them understand the impact of their actions on the overall business performance? And that's mindset. That's, that's looking through the lens differently. It's looking rather than at what I do, but why and how I do it.
00:09:50 Andy Goram
Central themes to engagement, Karen. Right? Absolutely central themes to engagement.
00:09:55 Karen Turton
And the Jim Sullivan's you know. And you and I both know. This employee engagement is critical to an organisation maximising its performance. It's the superpower you know. If you haven't got the employee engagement, you are not going to drive business potential. Fact. 10, 15, even 20 years ago we worked in organisations that were very, very focused on delivering task. Delivering a brand proposition right down to the letter of was the check back delivered within 2 minutes regardless of what the actual need of the guest was.
00:10:38 Andy Goram
00:10:40 Karen Turton
Regardless of actually stepping into their shoes.
00:10:42 Andy Goram
Where does the chat with the guest bit fit into that process, right? Where's the finding out really what your customer wants, fit within that checklist? I mean, maybe it's there, maybe I haven't looked close enough, but, I don't know.
00:10:56 Karen Turton
It wasn't managed or measured. Let's say it wasn't measured and what we're now talking about is all of that, that Jim Sullivan and everybody else brought in was fantastic. It's the ticket to play, but it's not the differentiator, no?
00:11:10 Andy Goram
No. You're saying, mindset and attitude is, you know principle focus for you. And in a lot of your work, you know, it's not just dealing with the guys that are clearing teaspoons away, right? You're trying to prepare the leaders of the future, right? Having a better understanding of these softer skills, right?
00:11:28 Karen Turton
Absolutely we are working closely with some really, really senior leaders. You know, some great operations managers, some great business owners who are these leaders for the future, who will be the CEO's of tomorrow, in a few years time and we're working with them now, to help re-programme the way that they run their organisations, so that they prioritise the how and the why, over the what.
00:12:01 Andy Goram
Yeah, it's interesting you say that, because I have long had a belief. That, I mean, there are a lot of very good senior leaders out there doing, doing the right things and having a concentration on mindset attitude among people. I think generally, senior leaders are usually extremely adept at the financial matters, strategy, development, those sort of more tangible things. Maybe your “hard centres” that you mentioned before, right? But they seem to be less comfortable. And again in general, with the softer stuff. The people development or culture development, behavioral stuff. Yeah, there's more intangibles or “soft centres” that you talk about. And I don't know whether that's because of the tasks that they've done previously or the way that they've been trained, or the importance, or the priority certain things have been put on in the past, but, you know, from the people that you deal with on a daily basis and what you see today...
00:13:00 Andy Goram
How well equipped are the people or the workforce of today to become these, these new leaders where mindset, attitude, people, culture are, I guess, taking more of a front and centre view?
00:13:13 Karen Turton
Wow, there's a question.
00:13:15 Andy Goram
Good, a good one!
00:13:17 Karen Turton
I know, and that's probably no one answer. Do the leaders that are coming through now have the required skills 100%, to drive their businesses through employee engagement, particularly for the younger generations? No, they don't. Because, their leaders were never taught those skills. Therefore, leadership evolution. You know, you don't know what you don't know. The place that we are playing in at Transition is filling the gap of, you don't know, what you don't know.
00:13:54 Karen Turton
So, if you take our multi-site leaders programme, and without naming names, we've had some really, really talented people just complete their final module. OK, one of these very talented leaders came into the programme thinking that their skill set was following the way that they believed they had to do the role, as in were being taught perception all of that and they left the programme, realising that their alternative skill set that they brought into the industry actually equipped them to be a much stronger leader. One of these future leaders.
00:14:39 Karen Turton
And they are now driving their business internally to look through a much wider lens than when they had entered the programme. All we've done is we've created a different. We've given them a different set of glasses to look through, and because they didn't know there was another set of glasses to wear. And now that they do, the way they're looking at their business is different than the way they were looking at it before.
00:15:05 Andy Goram
I guess also with the guys that you're working with, they’re making this transition, not to overplay the name of your company, but they're making a transition from mate to manager to leader, right? In that, they're working with people who are their mates? They then become a manager. They then have to manage their mates, and then you become a leader, right?
00:15:22 Andy Goram
So, I mean, that's some change, right? And you're not always sat down and told the changes in that role, or how to even cope with the changes that those changes bring.
00:15:36 Karen Turton
And you know, it's some of the small things that become their lightbulb moments. For example, when you say to them all, have you created your ways of working for how you're going to run a meeting? Not what you're going to cover in the meeting, but the ways of working for your monthly meeting, such as, what are the behaviors, you know? What are the values? What are the consequences for people that don't follow them? They suddenly go, “No, I've never thought about that. I've always just gone into the meeting agenda.” Well, actually, if you think about the ways of working for a particular meeting, the how, and the why, the actual meeting becomes more effective in itself.
00:16:18 Karen Turton
Yeah, yeah, so it's always those little things where you right mate to manage it a leader. It's always the tiny subtleties that are things that bring the biggest impact for somebody thinking about them.
00:16:31 Andy Goram
That's fab. I mean, and actually being sat down and have that explained is hugely important, right? And actually having the chance to even think about it? Often you just get plucked and chucked in a job and you are then expected to kind of know what to do.
00:16:47 Andy Goram
So, so how early in that process with them are you, are you talking about the engagement bits, if you like, of becoming the manager?
00:16:56 Karen Turton
Do you know? Well, engagement underpins our whole programmes. Because engagement, you know we talk about performance through people, not by people. You know, as soon as you start trying to manage performance by people, you end up managing task. Our whole engagement philosophy is that you have to inspire and motivate and empower and educate people to deliver the performance.
00:17:28 Andy Goram
And is this where your Big E, Little E concept comes into play? You want to explain that for me?
00:17:33 Karen Turton
Yeah, no, I did. So, I talk about Big E, a lot. One of the, one of the fundamental philosophies of Transition is that where as delivering a service was relevant 10 years ago. And hey, you know that's where we have mystery diner to manage service, 'cause Mystery Diner would clearly say whether you had achieved all 20 steps of the mystery service it the you know the service. It wouldn't look at how great. With the conversations with the guest.
00:18:05 Andy Goram
00:18:06 Karen Turton
Well, that was ten years ago. We’re now in a in an environment where it's about personalisation. It's about having it your way. Therefore, the concept of service is vastly irrelevant. Now, we're talking about experience. And experience is personal.
00:18:29 Andy Goram
00:18:29 Karen Turton
Experience is, how do we help leaders, employees, team members, colleagues, whatever you call them in your organisation. How do we help them understand? That to thrive you need to deliver an experience. The only way to deliver an experience is through empathy, which is where our Big E Little E model comes in. Little E is words, statements and actions that will deliver the service. It will deliver the brand proposition, but it won't deliver you the top NPS score or the five on Trip Advisor, or the loyal visit. It will satisfy the need of that visit, but it won't go any further. Or to your point, Little E won't make something sticky. That's where Big E comes into it.
00:19:14 Andy Goram
Big E and Sticky. I mean, perfect, what a blend.
00:19:17 Karen Turton
Works, doesn't it, Big E? Big E is mind, heart and behavior. So hard skills. Little E, delivers the service. Overlay it with this Big E – Mind, Heart, Behavior, Connection, Relationship, and you've suddenly got an experience that people talk about.
00:19:38 Andy Goram
Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I think, I once was lucky enough to sort of sit down at a corporate dinner. You know, back in the corporate days and fellow 49ers fan, Martin Johnson. Yeah, yeah, he won a World Cup Rugby as well at the same time, right? Was on my table and one of those embarrassing situations where you've got a Superstar on your table and no one wants to talk to him, 'cause they're embarrassed.
00:20:00 Andy Goram
But we had a pretty good chat. I wouldn't say we left as best mates, but we had a good chat and he talked about during the World Cup about Big Talk, Little Talk and it's very similar concept you talked about. You know on the pitch there were little bits of chat in little groups and these are about you know the Backs doing something specific in a move. And, you know, really thinking about the little bits of technique that were required or gaps that they’d seen and Big Talk was when the team came together to galvanise and move forward as one as a unit and play back to their values. And it's very similar to what you're talking about.
00:20:35 Karen Turton
You know the philosophy is well known. All that we do at Transition, is try to make things simple. You know when England won the World Cup, a lot of it was credited to their Psychologist, and I forget her name, but I think it was Pippa something, and her whole remit was how did she, to your point, drive the relationships off the pitch in the locker room? Beyond the I'm going to tell you what I want to tell you, but you're never going to really get to know me. As soon as those players started to understand each other on a much deeper level, their play on the pitch evolved to a different level. Because they were wearing each other’s shoes, they could anticipate. They could move. They could adapt. They were agile.
00:21:28 Karen Turton
And that's Big E. Big E is knowing that when the the young couple that come in for their first date post lockdown, the service that they're going to give them, is very different to the service they're giving the Mum and Dad with the kids that they've just picked up from football and want to feed them before they throw them in bed for the evening. That's when the experience becomes Big E.
00:21:53 Andy Goram
And this stuff sounds like incredibly obvious, right? So, why? But it doesn't happen everywhere. So why is that? Do you think? What's getting in the way, Karen?
00:22:03 Karen Turton
I think the honest answer is, I don't know, but I'm about to find out with some research.
00:22:10 Andy Goram
OK, tell me more.
00:22:11 Karen Turton
Yeah, well I will do, 'cause my theory, and I do a lot of reading, and everything you read, my theory is very much around - Organisations have set resources that they have to use in the most productive way. To get the maximum benefit, so you're going to go and fix the things that are easy to fix. We always hear the term low hanging fruit. Fixing behavior is not a low hanging fruit. Yeah, because every individual is wired differently. Therefore, every behaviour is different dependent on the individual you talking to. So to actually go and try and change this is fundamentally hard.
00:22:54 Andy Goram
I know, but I think that's, that's why I think a lot of these… the leaders today struggle with the overwhelm associated with the softer cultural stuff. It's like “Oh my God, I've got to teach everybody something different. I've got to treat everybody with completely different scenarios to everybody else. That's too much. Oh spreadsheet. Yeah, I can manage that. I'll concentrate my efforts on that because. I can help leverage the business that way.”
And I think finding ways to kind of like reduce this overwhelm or the perceived overwhelm of “Yeah, yes, really. It's too hard to build culture. It's too hard to kind of drive engagement continuously. Let's, let's concentrate on other things.” We’ve got to find ways to make it better. Make it easier for people.
00:23:44 Karen Turton
And I think that's the key there. Part of the reason I stepped away from the corporate world to do something entrepreneurial in this space, is because A) it's needed, you know B) it's not as hard as people think it is and, C) it makes a difference to people's lives.
00:24:04 Andy Goram
Oh gosh! I've seen it. I make a big deal about I talked to you about seeing the lights go on, but you do physically see the lights go on when someone kind of gets it and understands what their place in all of it is, and it doesn't need to be complicated. You know, I think consultants try and make it complicated, because that's how they earn their coin, but I think ultimately, make it simple. Pass it on.
00:24:27 Karen Turton
You know, if you think, and I'll talk about the research in a second, but one of the things through lockdown that Transition pivoted, because when we realized we couldn't do face to face, we started our Hangouts. Our Hangouts started, you know, lockdown on March 17th or whatever day it was. Within seven days of that lockdown, we’d pivoted and put an online training community together where every Friday for 30 minutes we would introduce a soft skills concept. Just one every Friday. Last Friday we achieved week 29.
00:25:06 Andy Goram
00:25:07 Karen Turton
And what we say with those soft skills is we circulate to everybody that attends, and an up to date we've had over 300 people now attend at least one of our Hangouts and a lot of them are regular followers. But to your point, we send the slides out. We send the models out, we send the concepts out totally free of charge. Because, if we can help change this focus from the inside out, then it's going to add value down the line. So, it's not all about money, or finance, or performance. It's about making a difference to people's lives.
00:25:40 Andy Goram
100% mate. 100%. I mean I, I think if you're doing this “stuff” to help leaders, and I use “stuff” completely incorrectly, it's not big enough term to define what you're doing, really, but you’re doing more engagement. You're trying to get them involved, you’re trying to make it simpler. And thinking about performance, I mean and you said to me that current performance metrics are irrelevant.
00:26:04 Andy Goram
So, going forward with these new managers, new leaders. What? What is it then, that you're going to get them to concentrate on? I mean, is this what's going to come out of the research? Or, is this feeding the research well? What's the story here?
00:26:18 Karen Turton
So, the research is about identifying current behaviors with soft skills. I talk about this metaphorical box of chocolates that an organisation has. You know what I want to know, through some research with the industry, is what percentage of those chocolates are currently hard skills, what percentage is soft skills?
00:26:38 Karen Turton
The hypothesis being, probably only 25% of any given box of chocolates is soft skills. It's the wrong way round. You know if we think about it, we recruit people based on those personal attributes. Those soft skills, typical job description will talk about an empathetic ear, being able to give and receive feedback, all behavioral skills, and then as soon as we get that person through the door, we train them on fire safety, or health and safety, and we've kind of flipped from what was soft to hard and we kind of need to flip that back. So, the research will help inform us how big a problem it is. I think it's quite a big problem that needs fixing, but the research will help. Absolutely, I don't want to say a number. But it will put a framework around our thinking that we can help other people understand.
00:27:33 Karen Turton
Moving forward, the metrics such as you know a business review where the area manager historically would focus on. I did it as an area manager. It's what I was trained to do. I would go in with my GM's and we’d talk about sales to budget, to last year. We’d talk about profitability. We’d talk about how many toilet rolls we were ordering and using. And I make light of it now.
00:28:00 Andy Goram
Well, it's very topical now. Toilet rolls.
00:28:02 Karen Turton
I suppose it is, really
00:28:03 Andy Goram
Yeah, very important.
00:28:06 Karen Turton
Absolutely didn't even think of that, but the very you know I would only then talk about. Employees living the values or how were we rewarding or praising individuals for exhibiting the right behaviors. That probably took 20% of the conversation, if that.
00:28:28 Karen Turton
Yeah, whereas the disruption today is, how do we flip it? Because if you're not living the values. If you are not exhibiting those behaviors, that the organisation is going to pride itself on, then you're never going to deliver the performance in the first place.
00:28:43 Andy Goram
No, we're not, and for this podcast you've now opened up a whole opportunity for me to bang on about values and behaviors for the next 40 minutes, which we do not have Karen. So that's a chat for another day my lovely.
00:28:59 Karen Turton
You can pick that up wherever, but they’re the important bits that need focusing on so the metrics of the future, the metrics that we pride ourselves on looking at in Transition, are those metrics of employee turnover or retention, or from engagement surveys. Or, you know, actually, how do you encourage somebody to want to do their E-learning rather than compliance management?
00:29:23 Andy Goram
Yeah. Encouragement as opposed to compliance. Yeah, I think yeah, that's the message. But now as we get close to the end of our time together, we have come to the part of the podcast I like to call “Sticky Notes”. OK, so this is where my guest leaves us with the top three things that. People can take back to the ranch today and start improving. The engagement of their people and begin creating a stickier working environment and culture. So, Karen, what sticky notes are you going to leave, virtually, on the walls of the sticky from the inside podcast today for my listeners?
00:30:03 Karen Turton
Sticky Note #1 would be, “Understand what your box of chocolates looks like.” Because if you don't know your balance of hard and soft skills then you can't then fix any problems that are coming. So Sticky Note Number One. What does your box of chocolates look like from a soft and hard centre's point of view.
00:30:24 Karen Turton
Sticky Note #2 would be, “Drive a Big E focus throughout your business.” It's about experience and not service. It's mind, heart and behavior, not word statements and actions.
00:30:39 Karen Turton
And Sticky Note #3 would be, “Lift your head up, look through the windscreen of your car and not look through the rearview mirror but what's gone behind you.” Because it's in the past for a reason. It's about what we can do rather than what we didn't do.
00:30:57 Andy Goram
Oh lovely. So, let me just see if I've mentally, kind of like, memorised those things. #1 “Know your box of chocolates.” Afterall, everybody loves chocolate map. I can't dive into a box without the map.
00:31:13 Karen Turton
Nice, I like that.
00:31:14 Andy Goram
It’s too overwhelming, right? #2 “Experience, not service.” Simple. It goes deeper than just the tick box of delivery. Yeah get involved and the third bit.
00:31:25 Andy Goram
“Look up, look forward, the back’s finished.” Right. Ok. Marvellous!
00:31:32 Andy Goram
Karen, thank you for those. They’re my first three sticky notes on the wall. I hope over the weeks to come that they'll be surrounded by others, but they will always be my first. They will always mean something very special to me.
00:31:43 Karen Turton
How exciting I get to talk about chocolate on your first ever podcast.
00:31:48 Andy Goram
I know brilliant, absolutely fantastic. Not quite the topic I was expecting to talk about today, but hey. Whenever there's an opportunity to talk about chocolate, I’m in?
00:31:56 Karen Turton
It was always going to be random. It was always going to be random with me on.
00:31:59 Andy Goram
Bless you. Well, brilliant! Well, that's about all we've got time for Karen today, so thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. I think you've given people plenty to think about and given them some really practical tips on how to help progress with their own journey.
Good luck with the award nomination.
00:32:20 Karen Turton
Thank you very much.
00:32:21 Andy Goram
I'm sure it's in the bag. And and I look forward to seeing you soon. Anyone who’d like to find out more about Karen and transition you'll find all the information and the links in the show notes. So just say thanks. Very much, Karen.
00:32:37 Karen Turton
Thanks very much Andy.
00:32:44 Andy Goram
So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something, maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forwards if you have please like comment and subscribe. It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the Sticky From The Inside Podcast.
00:33:10 Andy Goram
Until next time, thanks for listening.