In today’s ever-changing work environment, fostering genuine human connection can feel more challenging—and more essential—than ever. With remote work, emerging technologies, and shifting work models like the four-day workweek, the modern workplace is at a crossroads.
The big question many leaders are grappling with is this:
"How do we stay truly connected to each other when the traditional rules of the workplace no longer apply?"
In this latest episode of Sticky From The Inside, host Andy Goram dives into this topic with special guest Mike Horne, acclaimed author of The People Dividend: Leadership Strategies for Unlocking Employee Potential. Mike brings a wealth of knowledge about how human-centered leadership can combat workplace isolation, boost engagement, and unlock the hidden potential within every team member. But he’s not just talking about surface-level fixes; Mike’s ideas call for a deeper, values-driven approach to leadership.
Have You Ever Felt Like Just Another Cog in the Machine?
It's a feeling many of us know all too well—feeling isolated, undervalued, or like we’re just another cog in the wheel. Even the most passionate, talented individuals can feel disconnected, especially in environments where human values take a back seat to efficiency and metrics. Mike believes that to truly address workplace isolation, we need to move away from viewing employees as mere resources and start embracing their inherent dignity, kindness, and respect.
But how can leaders practically implement this shift? Are there small changes that can make a big impact? In this episode, Mike and Andy explore these questions and dive into practical strategies that leaders at every level can adopt to foster a more connected and supportive workplace.
Human-Centered Leadership in an Age of AI and a 4-Day Workweek
The conversation also touches on some of today’s most pressing workplace dynamics: the rise of artificial intelligence and the growing popularity of the four-day workweek. How do these changes impact our sense of connection at work? Mike and Andy explore how leaders can approach these shifts while keeping human values front and center. They examine the potential risks—like the erosion of human connection—and the opportunities, such as the chance for people to focus more on creative, meaningful work.
Can AI actually enhance human connection? Or will it drive us further apart? Mike shares surprising insights into how technology, when used thoughtfully, might help foster stronger bonds and promote more inclusive workplace cultures.
Practical Tips to Start Building Connection Today
Throughout the episode, Mike shares straightforward, actionable tips for leaders who want to build more inclusive, human-centered workplaces. He emphasizes the power of small actions, like greeting team members genuinely or simply getting out of your chair and engaging with others in person. These may sound simple, but in today’s fast-paced work culture, these small gestures can be a powerful antidote to isolation.
In Mike’s view, the foundation of effective leadership lies in embracing and modeling human values. His advice? Approach leadership with dignity, kindness, and respect—and watch how your team transforms.
Ready to Reimagine Your Approach to Leadership?
Whether you’re a leader, a team member, or someone simply interested in creating a more fulfilling work environment, this episode offers plenty of insights to consider. The conversation will inspire you to think differently about what it means to lead and how a few key shifts in mindset and behavior can make a profound difference.
Tune in to the full episode below or read along with the transcript to get the complete insights from this fascinating conversation with Mike Horne. After listening, reflect on this question:
"What could you do differently today to make your workplace a more human-centered, connected environment?"
Enjoy the episode, and let us know what resonates with you in the comments! Thanks!
Full Transcript
Introduction to Human-Centered Leadership
Andy Goram (0:10 - 3:29)
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Okay then, have you heard someone say that they feel like just another cog in the machine? How often have you heard that said? Even talented, passionate people can end up feeling isolated, disconnected and unappreciated work, especially in this rapidly changing landscape we're experiencing today. But what if we could change that?
What if we could create workplaces where everyone from top leadership to the very newest hire feels genuinely seen, valued and connected, no matter who they are or where they're coming from? In this episode, I am delighted to say I'm joined by Mike Horne, author of The People Dividend, Leadership Strategies for Unlocking Employee Potential, who has a bold vision for eliminating isolation at work. Mike believes that to overcome workplace isolation, we need to stop viewing employees as resources and instead embrace their inherent value, dignity and potential.
And in a world increasingly shaped by AI and the oncoming promise of a four-day workweek, he says that dignity, kindness and respect are no longer soft skills but essential components of a leadership style that fosters real connection, which is bang in line with the sentiment of this podcast. Today, we'll ask some big questions and try to get to the heart of workplace isolation. What would it take to make everyone feel a true sense of belonging at work?
How can leaders be more human being and less human doing, as the Dalai Lama famously once said? And as we approach this world where AI is going to handle more of our tasks, how can we make sure technology strengthens human relationships rather than undermines them? So, whether you're leading a team, working in one or simply seeking more meaning in your day-to-day, I think this conversation is for you.
I'm hoping Mike's about to share some transformative insights that could make isolation at work a thing of the past and inspire each of us to go and play a role in making that happen. Welcome to the show, Mike.
Mike Horne (3:30 - 4:19)
Well, Andy, thank you so much for having me. I am so delighted to be a guest on your podcast and to join your audience as we discuss all things about human performance and people-centred performance in organisational life. Andy and I share values, even though we've known each other briefly.
I believe we share a set of humanistic values that are at the centre of the work that Andy does and clearly part of the People Dividend, advancing humanistic values and management for dignity, kindness, and respect. All topics of my newest book, The People Dividend, Leadership Strategies for Unlocking Potential.
Andy Goram (4:19 - 4:36)
And I am looking forward to discussing those things with you today, my friend. But before we get into that, why don't you do me a favour? Introduce yourself properly to the listeners.
Give us a little bit about your background and thinking about the People Dividend itself, what's inspired that piece of work?
Mike Horne (4:37 - 6:01)
I'm described as a coach, mentor, and teacher. So throughout my career, I've looked for roles to express those talents that I have to develop who I am and what I do as a coach, mentor, and teacher. So I have a very active executive development and organisation development coaching business.
So that's where I give fulfilment to those roles. I am also the program director for the Graduate Human Resources and Leadership Programs at Golden Gate University in San Francisco. So there's my full-time teaching expression.
I just finished a book chapter yesterday on the intersection of artificial intelligence, emotional intelligence, and human resources. It's a topic I've been presenting on at conferences over the last couple of months. So there's this coaching part, which is my business, my teaching part, my work at Golden Gate University, and my mentoring activities, of which I have several underway.
I'm delighted to work with those who are developing their careers in learning development and organisation development and setting a foundation for future generations of executive and organisation development consultants.
Andy Goram (6:02 - 6:05)
So just a few things going on then in that background!
Mike Horne (6:05 - 6:13)
You know, what I've always learned is that if you want something done, ask a busy person if you've heard that expression. So, yes.
Andy Goram (6:14 - 6:44)
Brilliant. And the People Dividend book itself, where's that come from? Because I'd like to unpack some of those things in there that you have written about today and discuss their impact and actually how we can kind of really foster more of the tenets that you bring out in this book.
But was it something that was always burning inside of you to write this book, or is it something that had to come out because of certain events? Explain that to me.
Understanding the People Dividend: Mike Horne’s Perspective
Mike Horne (6:45 - 8:34)
Well, I think this is a natural extension of my work. It's an evolution of my last recent book, Integrity by Design, Working and Living Authentically. So there's an extension there.
But I think it grew out of a recent experience where I was reporting to someone in an organisation. And, you know, despite asking for feedback, despite saying, how am I doing at these regular and routine check-ins? I don't think the guy ever really cared.
I think he had his own set of issues and his own career that he was managing. So I could have said I was burning down the house or, you know, or inspiring performance in the organisation. I don't think it would have mattered one difference.
So it is this feeling of, you know, what the social psychologists call enemy, this sense of isolation. And I think, you know, for some people, you know, you might trace it to factory line work. You know, imagine that you're that person on a production line and you're putting a cap on a spray can and, you know, there are 150 coming at you at, you know, a rapid clip.
There's that kind of enemy that happens or it might be the isolation of working in the fast food industry. And so if you want to create engagement, if you want to create the ability of a person to exercise their discretionary effort at work to bring more of who they are to what they do, then you got to tap into the people dividend. It's as simple as that.
My challenge is we have too many bad managers, but you know, in a way that's an opportunity for me as a coach.
Andy Goram (8:34 - 9:08)
I think so. Well, I just, we just recorded an episode with Deborah Corey, uh, who spoke about bad bosses ruin lives. And, uh, I mean, this couldn't be a better kind of, uh, bedfellow, if you like to, to that episode in terms of highlighting, like you just said, all those bad behaviours, sometimes well-intentioned, but just, they don't do great things to people in organisations.
And then this conversation looking at, okay, so how do we bring some of these more human centred behaviours, really front and centre into an organisation to, to make everything better?
The Role of Human Values in Modern Leadership
Mike Horne (9:09 - 9:59)
Well, I have two recommendations in that regard for your audience, Andy, and, uh, you know, there's so much wisdom to gain from seeking from the inside podcast. Uh, I would really appreciate that reflection you just shared, uh, with an earlier guest. Uh, but there are two ways to address this issue of, uh, ending isolation at work, of making people feel that they matter.
The first is that if you're a manager or a leader of people or just a coworker, for goodness sakes, learn to say hello. Yeah. You know, I think we often treat people as elements in our production.
Where's that report? Did you do this? You know, nobody really wants to go through it, but the opportunity, you know, the, the act, the behaviour of saying hello is the easiest way to create inclusion.
Andy Goram (10:00 - 10:01)
Yeah. Connection.
Strategies for Building Connection and Reducing Isolation at Work
Mike Horne (10:02 - 10:46)
Connection. And the second thing to do is if you're able to do that, uh, you know, I mean, when this with all good intention is to get out of your chair. Now it's so interesting to think about share today.
Uh, recently in the news, Starbucks, uh, announced that they're requiring 3,500 employees to return to work, I guess, in Seattle or wherever their corporate offices are around the planet, at least three days a week. And it's interesting to watch social media's take on this and, you know, what we've come to feel about, uh, if you're in a big corporation and you're lucky enough to have a job that can be done where you think almost anywhere to, to see what's going on in that regard in terms of our connection.
Andy Goram (10:47 - 12:09)
I think this is such an important thing and a theme that I think runs through your book, because when I, when I researched your book to me and please correct me if I have this wrong, this sort of like five, five key areas that I'd like to try and explore through our conversation today. Um, well, that's great. Well, one of those, I think I mentioned firmly upfront in the introduction, which was this eliminating isolation in the workplace, right?
The first thing that stand out the book, we've talked a couple of times or mentioned a couple of times about embracing a more human centred approach to leadership. Um, and then I think we have spoken before and you have spoken about this journey towards the four day week in the, in the U S which is, you know, I think it's embryonic in the UK, but it's certainly being talked about more and more coming back to us. Also some fundamental in my perspective, foundational pieces around human values and particularly that trust and connection thing, and then how we accelerate the value of people in an organisation, as opposed to seeing them as resources.
Those are the sort of like five key, if you like for me, tenants that came out of the book. Is that, is that your intention? Have I missed anything in, in that sort of summary?
Mike Horne (12:09 - 13:28)
No, what I would add is just the context of how AI is, is affecting and changing all of those. And, you know, as I wrote the book over the last year and brought it to market, uh, in November, 2024, uh, really thinking about how AI is impacting jobs. Maybe that will lead to the four day work week and more automation in organisations, less people are required.
There are some stellar examples that Unilever and IBM, uh, with huge savings of, uh, labor hours, Unilever has 70,000 hours in labor savings are with the introduction of automation. So I think that's what I would say is that AI is a huge contributor to all of these things. And what we know is that, you know, if you have bad news to deliver, send it via machine.
If you have good news to deliver, do it in person, uh, do it in a way that has connection. And isn't that very similar to what we've been talking about for decades now is that, uh, to lead with your strengths. And so a few people really work at uncovering them fully.
Andy Goram (13:29 - 14:00)
Well, let's try and dive into some of these topics. Sure. Then Mike, uh, we might mash them up a little bit and talk about them, but I'm really, I'm interested to really have a look at this, um, eliminate, eliminating isolation in, in the workplace.
Um, from the research that you've done and the perspective that you come from, what are some of the causes you think known and perhaps maybe unintentional or even overlooked of the formulation of isolation at work?
Mike Horne (14:01 - 15:33)
One is, um, the dominant tendency of many organisational leaders to demons to have an extroverted orientation. So I, uh, observe client meetings, sit-in client meetings, where the senior executive is saying, everyone needs to be back at work. Everyone needs to be in an office building.
And you can see in those meetings where it's driven out of this need, uh, to connect with people in places in the outer world, as opposed to taking another opportunity to reinforce what's likely to create more lasting and enduring value, which is all part of the people dividend in values, mission, and purpose. So that's where we create the greatest alignment of human effort and human talent. I think what's stuck with me, you know, if we continue to think about the origin story of the people dividend, I remember one very senior executive succession planning, uh, executive in a large corporation where I work, who, uh, looked at me with a straight face and said, you know, if we could figure out a way to make money without people, we would, you know, pretty cynical perspective.
I start with the belief. And I think you share this, Andy, is that people are at the heart of the enterprise.
Andy Goram (15:34 - 16:04)
100%, my friend, 100%. I think that is the thing. I think it's also interesting when I was thinking about this isolation at work.
And we will not be isolated anymore, but I remember times personally sitting in a very crowded office feeling completely isolated and out of it and not connected to anybody around me. I think the physical presence is one tiny part of the jigsaw. Right.
Mike Horne (16:05 - 16:26)
And in some global corporations where I have a lot of deep experience, um, is that if you're closer colleague in Zurich, then you do somebody who's two floors down from you. It's just part of that reality, right? The teams that you work with.
Andy Goram (16:27 - 16:44)
Yeah. And do you think this is what gets to the centre of this? And you've used the phrase before cog in the machine.
Do you think this is where, where this sort of stems from just being a number, uh, not understanding or having your real value recognized in an organisation?
Mike Horne (16:45 - 17:45)
Well, it's part of the transformational journey that we've been on in, uh, management and leadership, you know, moving from an era of efficiency where we're really counting and more standardized approaches to management. Then, uh, moving towards, uh, customer service orientation and a more, uh, attempt to be, um, more focused on the bigger variables that might create change in management and leadership now to moving towards, uh, the AI air. And that's why I believe these, uh, humanistic values would be, uh, much more important because.
Of the rise of the gig economy as well, given a shorter work week, people will construct, uh, a brand identities and livelihoods in ways that differ from the, uh, you know, a time when a more conventional work approach was the only route available.
Andy Goram (17:45 - 18:26)
Yeah. I think this is also what I believe is linked to this human centred leadership thing. I mean, I, I jokingly mentioned the Dalai Lama before in his, you know, infamous, uh, human being versus human doing quotation, which I think in the UK, certainly Richard Branson from absolutely nicked and started to use, um, for, for his own means in, in, in his business.
But from your perspective, when we think about this human centred bit, how does this, well, how can leaders embody that philosophy genuinely and authentically do you think to try and help minimize some of this isolation stuff?
Mike Horne (18:27 - 18:59)
Right. Understand your role as a coach and understand your role as a judge. Most managers need to wear both hats and, uh, tend to focus on the assessment versus the coach hat.
Uh, this, these, you have to under, you know, I think it comes with an awareness that these are not dichotomous. They're not separate. They're not one, you know, they're all, they're both part of the equation now for managing for team success, managerial success.
Andy Goram (18:59 - 19:39)
And I would imagine that you would advocate like I would for some. Well, let, let's use a very blunt instrument. Let's say training in these human centred relationship skills.
Uh, I know you're as triggered as I am by the term soft skills, but I think, I think we have to realize that we can't take for granted that these, these skills of empathy, respect, dignity, kindness are, are necessarily well understood concepts. And, and actually people feel like they are equipped to, to bring these to work and use them effectively.
Mike Horne (19:39 - 19:40)
Yes.
Andy Goram (19:41 - 19:53)
Do I believe that people are equipped with these inherently or do you, I mean, I think people generally think they are, but I think evidence would say that we don't use them well enough in, in, in business.
Mike Horne (19:54 - 20:33)
That's an accurate statement. I would concur with that. Yeah.
Uh, I believe that these are inherent, uh, because as a humanist in management is somebody who believes in the human potential movement that I believe in the inherent worth of the individual. And therefore, you know, these other things to see a person in process, uh, to see, um, uh, inclusion and diversity is natural elements of, uh, systems is, is the way that I approach the world and the kind of clients that I want to work with who are changing the world.
Andy Goram (20:34 - 21:17)
I think this is the thing though, because what I often feel like on this podcast, I'm sure you do on the people dividend podcast too, that you, I often feel a bit like a fraud because I think I'm talking about common sense a lot of the time, a lot of the time, which is biased because it's coming from my, my perspective, but what's the, what have you seen in your work and what do you do in your work, Mike, to help people perhaps see these things a bit more clearly, uh, practice them um, so that they can be more effective in, in the day to day.
I mean, is it as simple as sitting down and doing the self-awareness coaching and all those sorts of things, or, or are there other techniques that you're finding, uh, have a much better lasting effect?
Mike Horne (21:18 - 23:03)
Well, I'm plenty credentialed. Um, I offer three things. Um, you know, I try to keep it simple for myself.
Uh, one is I offer, I, I, I offer executive coaching services. And that means for people who are founders owners in the C suite or their aspirants to the C suite. Um, so maybe their VP in an organisation.
So I offer coaching to those individuals in three, six or 12 month increments. The second thing that I do is that I offer leadership development programs to my clients. So a company can engage me for six to 18 months.
I work with a group of people done this in all different kinds of shapes and forms, working with cohort group, uh, on leadership topics over a course of 16, six to 18 months. And the third thing that I do is I leverage my expertise in organisation development. Um, got three decades of experience in, uh, organisation development, uh, making better places to work, making places where people do their best work.
So I offer, I intervene in systems, uh, for my, uh, executive clients. I just completed, for example, the redesign of a research and development organisation for one of the biggest, uh, medical device companies, uh, finished, uh, uh, onboarding of a CEO, uh, recently. So this is the kinds of organisation development services that I provide as well, given the expertise and leverage that I have as in that field.
Andy Goram (23:03 - 23:28)
And so within all of that work, Mike, what are some of the common things that you see as perhaps barriers to making these human centred values become part of that leadership toolkit? If you like, is it that people think they're already good at them? People don't see the value in them or, um, is it something else?
What, what, what's going on in the mix?
Mike Horne (23:28 - 25:16)
What are you typically seeing when you're engaging with individual service offering, you know, as an, as an executive coach, most of the people with whom I work have inherently bad people skills. Uh, you know, they're very bright people. Uh, they have risen in their fields in science and technology or in engineering because they are very bright people and very successful technically at what they do.
But we know from, you know, now Warner Burke, 40 years, 45 years of social science research that promoting people on the basis of their technical skills, isn't the pathway to leadership. So you have this cream of the crop that I work with, you know, very successful, uh, scientists, technologists, engineers, for the most part, finance folks, sales, but very technically successful individuals, um, who still need help. With, uh, you know, their people skills, you know, for example, a board of directors engaged me to work with the founder who had grown this business into, uh, you know, a globally recognized brand very quickly raised a lot of money.
Um, and was no longer effective to scale the business and had a number of, you know, interpersonal issues with the C-suite team that probably wouldn't be tolerated in many places. And I've witnessed and experienced up, you know, uh, upfront, I mean, working for some of the leading technology, engineering, and biotech companies, uh, these kinds of folks. And I love working with them because they're successful people and they want to do better.
Embracing a 4-Day Workweek and Adapting to AI
Andy Goram (25:17 - 25:55)
And is that. And again, I'm just really curious when you're, when you, when you're faced with that situation with someone who is incredibly bright, done very, very well, technically, and they've, they realize, or they see that they don't have that interpersonal connection or that, or that set of skills to really engage and inspire and motivate people as, as best they could. What's the reaction from those individuals and how they got to that point in their career without being able to hone those things?
Do you think?
Mike Horne (25:55 - 26:45)
Or it may be that it's not that they're unable to do those things. It's just that they could leverage themselves so much more effectively, um, to, uh, drive alignment to organisational purpose and mission. Yeah.
So it's, it's not often that they, these are deficient. I mean, they're deficient, but they're, but they are observable. Okay.
Well, and recoverable clearly from the work that you do. Right. Sure.
Much, much more difficult in a team development exercise, uh, to regain trust, uh, you know, in many executive teams, it's not an issue. Uh, in most C-suite teams, I mean, trust isn't a big issue. I don't think because the foci of the, the, the focus of the team is just different.
Andy Goram (26:45 - 27:24)
I think I see, I find that really interesting and maybe it's because of relative engagements or, or businesses that I've worked in or that I have worked with, because sometimes there's this kind of pseudo mist of trust within a, within a room where there's a lot of nodding that goes on in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha.
Gotcha. Gotcha. But it doesn't necessarily exist outside of that exec room.
There's a, their trust means there's a, a lack of challenge and therefore a lack of commitment in, in, in some of those actions, which is sometimes, sometimes what you see, I'm really interested to sort of say that in your experience on the exec, the trust thing doesn't seem to be such a big deal.
Mike Horne (27:25 - 27:45)
Well, it's not that I have to trust you on how you're going to do your job because you know, you can be responsible for leading the research and development organisation. You can be responsible for leading the finance technical trust. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, but you know, what I trust you on is that we're all aligned on the same mission. And when that falls apart, you're in real trouble.
Andy Goram (27:45 - 28:07)
Yeah. And I think this is what it comes back to right in the, at the heart of it. If that, if that group aren't aligned and don't have a clear vision and mission and a set of objectives and strategies that are aligned to those things and a bunch of enabling values and behaviours that will help you deliver those things in the right way, the wheels come off.
I mean, that's, that's when it starts to get a bit wobbly, right?
Mike Horne (28:08 - 28:29)
Sure. And this is, uh, you know, much of the organisation development work in the interventions that I offer is getting people to, uh, alignment, you know, whether it's a structure issue, whether it's a team development issue, uh, or if it is, um, a leadership issue, it's around creating a, uh, a shared sense of alignment.
Andy Goram (28:29 - 28:55)
Well, let's maybe move on and think about, I don't know whether it's, it's right. Um, to think about that the framing of this isolation at work, but also move into that, that topic of the four day week shifting, and I guess a need for a different sort of collaboration and how that kind of comes about. So what's going on with the four day week in the, in the U S right now, where, where are we, what are we heading towards and what challenges and opportunities is that bringing in this context?
Mike Horne (28:57 - 29:48)
Work happens in such variable ways. Uh, there are those who are fortunate to be able to schedule their work and to adjust their hours as they see fit. Uh, there are others who, uh, you know, work longer days or fewer days in the office.
Uh, you particularly think about that in healthcare and in first responder situations where people may work, uh, several 12 hour shifts in order for more flexibility. Um, as with the AI frontier, uh, ahead of us, I think there will be a general scaling back of a lot of work. We'll have to think about work in newer ways.
And that's why those are three reasons why I think, uh, we're leading towards more of the four day work week, where we'll see it soon.
Andy Goram (29:49 - 30:08)
And so what issues does that present for this, this topic of the potential to have maybe increased isolation at work with spending maybe less time in that work environment, maybe being less connected with the people around us. What, what do you see as the challenges and opportunities there?
Mike Horne (30:09 - 30:26)
Well, I see all the opportunities in the people dividend. So, uh, so, so, so tell us what, what, what that looks like then in terms of, uh, the people dividend, what, what are, are you asking any, like, what are the, uh, manage managerial mindsets?
Andy Goram (30:26 - 30:27)
Yeah.
Mike Horne (30:27 - 30:30)
Are you asking about what the everyday behaviours are? What are you thinking about?
Andy Goram (30:30 - 30:42)
I think it's a combination of those two things, right? What approach we got to bring from a mindset perspective and how does this stuff show up in some focused, intentional, maybe differentiated behaviours?
Mike Horne (30:43 - 31:33)
Yeah. I'm a big believer that in order to work on mindsets, work on behaviours first. Um, so that's exactly what I would do is, uh, you know, I'm sort of an engineer by, uh, by, by design, I think, uh, by, by practice.
And I think you want to choose the most pressing issues that you face in the pursuit of your organisation success. And that once you're able to identify those to see what behaviours are driving you towards those goals and then what behaviours are opposing your achievement of those goals and to figure out what the cycle is, what's creating the immunity to make the next step.
Andy Goram (31:34 - 32:52)
And that is, that is the kind of message behind this, this people dividend, right? Recognizing people for their inherent value and bringing some more human centred values to bring those things out. Right.
And so, yeah, cause, cause some, some greater connections. And so we've got a four day week heading our way. And at the same time, we've got this, I mean, rapid explosion of AI support.
I mean, you only have to look over, I guess, the oceans to see what's going over in Japan with society 5.0 and really sort of doubling down on where the AI supports, I guess, human enjoyment of life. Um, we're at the intersection, I think, of this stuff starting to balloon. And so what challenges or opportunities does that give to this whole people dividend, um, situation?
Because we've got people on, I mean, no surprise nowadays, you've got the kind of black and white of it all. It's very binary, you know, AI is going to kill us and everybody's going to lose their jobs. And the other bit is actually, it's going to release us.
I'm going to have a more creative life and a more balance. And there's all sorts of wonderful things going to happen. Where do you sit, um, with this and how does it relate to your work on the people dividend?
Mike Horne (32:53 - 33:26)
Well, I noticed as I was speaking at conferences, uh, over the last few months where there's a lot of conversation in human resources about AI, some companies, uh, taking the position to, uh, ban it, to not allow its use at work. Uh, others, uh, turned a blind eye to it. Uh, go ahead, use it on your personal devices, copy and paste it into, you know, your corporate device.
It's fine. Uh, uh, and others have, uh, taken a completely experimental approach. I think those who take the experimental approach are those that benefit.
Andy Goram (33:27 - 34:39)
So just trying to sort of have a go, see what it does, integrate different things, see what works, see what benefit. Well, it's fundamentally changed work. I mean, you know, fewer people write memos.
I know. I mean, I use it, I use it tons, right? I use it tons for putting me in, um, in the ballpark of a piece of work.
And if I want to structure some stuff out, it's great at putting me in the ballpark. I, I, I guess there are other people who are wholly reliant on it. And some people who, who think it's the devil incarnate.
I mean, I, I think when we think about it from a people perspective, what, what do we see as the challenges and opportunities specifically with regards to people seeing their value in the workplace? Are we fundamentally shifting our appreciation of that from the amount of time you spend doing something, which is still a thing, right? You could be sitting in the office for eight hours, achieving nothing, but he's worked hard.
And yet today, you've got a piece of software effectively that could, I don't get you there in, in minutes. Um, who's done the most work who's had the best thing. Are we now looking at real outputs as opposed to time?
How, how are these things challenging us from what you see in the conversations that you have, Mike?
Challenges and Opportunities of Human-Centered Leadership in the AI Era
Mike Horne (34:40 - 35:14)
Well, I think you could see them generationally. They show up different. That's for sure.
Uh, people who are, uh, you know, digital nomads think differently about, um, boomers who are still in the workplace, uh, about millennials in the workplace. I mean, there's certainly been an evolution into how we conceive of and think of leadership, you know, certainly moving from more authoritarian styles to influencer styles. Yeah.
Uh, it's just a reality.
Andy Goram (35:15 - 35:33)
Yeah. I mean, I think that that's definitely that generational shift that we're coming through. Do you, do you think with the message of recognizing human value at work, do you think that AI is going to significantly challenge or enhance that?
Mike Horne (35:34 - 35:58)
Well, a lot of it depends on what gets programmed into the algorithm, you know, and how we conceive of those. So I think that's certainly, you know, one thing that we need to be concerned about, but you know, for example, I mean, there are companies that are using AI right now in, uh, recruiting to scan for emotional intelligence.
Andy Goram (35:58 - 37:17)
I mean, I'm, I'm interested in this paradox. I don't know if it really is a paradox. Maybe I'm overusing a word.
That's a bit grandiose for what it is, but I'm sort of hopeful because that example for me is where, why I get hopeful in the, in the human AI interaction for me, something like recruitment in the last few years before necessarily AI for me in the UK. And we've talked about it on the podcast before. It feels like a broken industry.
It's actually taken the humanistic stuff out of it. It's just chuck your CV into it. The spiders will crawl all over it.
And if you're lucky, it'll pop out the other end of something. Somebody might have a look at, and then might have a conversation with you. The human connection of that whole recruitment piece in many cases seems to have been lost through some sort of automation.
And yet what you just described is AI. I think actually bringing a bit more humanity, a bit more humanness into, into its assessment, which you would then hope it depends on the business model that the people working in the recruitment company could spend more time talking and engaging with the prospective clients. And perhaps the pool of people are looking for jobs while the AI does the sifting at the moment.
That's not a combination that I see working very well.
Mike Horne (37:18 - 37:59)
And you can even use it in like first level employee relations issues for your listeners who are in human resources. For example, you know, I'm an employee and I have an issue with how my coworker smells. So rather than you know, I go to a bot at my employment and say, here's the issue I'm facing.
And a number of resources and alternatives are presented about what you might do in that situation that might not necessitate additional human involvement. It might lead to a satisfactory solution. So there are all kinds of ways in which this is transforming the ways in which we work.
Andy Goram (38:00 - 38:09)
When you wrote the book, Mike, what were you hoping would be the impact of it with the particular audience you aimed at?
Mike Horne (38:10 - 39:39)
Well, is to enlarge the conversation around humanism in organisations and humanistic values in organisations is to enlarge that conversation so that my clients who employ the people dividend principles and the learners who are out there who will subscribe to a course or learn about the are able to find more fulfillment and happiness and growth at work. It's a natural extension. As I said earlier, I'm from integrity by design, working and living authentically.
My book in 2021, uh, you know, as a Marshall Goldsmith said, integrity by design is a lesson in authenticity, read it and it may change the way you lead in life. And now, you know, what I'm moving towards with the people dividend available on Amazon, uh, is that, um, this is to take a leap from that. This is to take a springboard, uh, to think more, um, holistically about teams and organisations.
Integrity by design was the focus on the inside, right? About who you are and congruency. And, uh, and now I'm thinking more broadly about, okay, how do you put all this to use?
How do we put our integral design, our integrity? How do we put our congruency to work in creating the people dividend? And that's why you need to be equipped with these certain set of skills and humanistic values.
Andy Goram (39:39 - 39:59)
And do you get a sense? I know, I know you're uber positive man in this, in this degree, you get a sense that we are actually bringing more humanity in or in a post COVID area era. Are we, are we seeing it dissipate again?
Mike Horne (40:00 - 40:33)
Well, I don't know, you know, I, as an American, I'm inherently optimistic. I think it's a fault of Americans, right? This inherent optimism that we seem to have, uh, without any, you know, really good planning.
So I think, you know, uh, it's, uh, you know, I bring some cultural bias to all of this. And what I understand though, is the power of agency and agenic behaviour, uh, informing dominant coalitions that can make a difference, uh, in the working lives of people.
Key Takeaways: Cultivating the People Dividend Through Human Values and Leadership
Andy Goram (40:34 - 41:05)
And that leads us nicely on Mike, before I, before I let you go, right. Um, we've come to the part in the show I call sticky notes. Okay.
And so what I'm looking to get from you is three amazing pearls of wisdom that you could fit on little sticky notes that I guess would in this case, help people get to grips with the message of the people dividend. So if you had the opportunity to leave three sticky notes behind, what would you put on your sticky notes, my friend?
Mike Horne (41:05 - 42:04)
The first two I have already provided. Okay. So one is say “hello”.
So you just write one word on your sticky note. Hello. Hopefully that's the reminder to second thing is get out of your chair.
And you know, I don't mean that in a disparaging way, but is to, uh, get up. Um, even if you don't do anything, you know, getting up once an hour, if you're at a desk and you're just working, it's good for you. I mean, it'll reset you.
Uh, and then we can work on taking that one little behaviour, that act of getting up out of your chair and turn it into a mindset or, um, uh, alignment and congruence and bringing those parts of you, uh, to work. So get out of your, hello, get out of your chair. And the third action item is to answer the question.
In what ways did I bring my best today?
Andy Goram (42:04 - 42:36)
Nice. Mike, I, I think one of the best things about doing a podcast and I don't know if you think, feel the same is you get to meet some wonderful people and occasionally some really cool kindred spirits, you know, and I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting you and, uh, researching your book and, uh, and listening to you today. Um, thank you so much for coming on before I let you go.
If people want to find out more about you and get hold of some resources, where should they, where should they go? My friend, Mike dash horn.com.
Mike Horne (42:37 - 43:02)
I mean, that'll take you there. You can also find me on LinkedIn. I've got a lot of activity there, but, uh, my website is the best place to Mike dash horn, H O R N E.com.
It's the best place to go to, um, listen to my podcast to download my, uh, eBooks, first chapters of my, uh, last books, uh, a weekly blog, uh, and lots of information about, uh, what I do.
Andy Goram (43:02 - 43:50)
Well, we'll make sure to put all of that stuff in the show notes, my friend, Mike, it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on. You take care.
Thank you so much, Andy. All right. Cheers, Mike.
Okay. Everyone that was Mike horn. And if you'd like to find out anything more about him or any of the topics that we've talked about today, please check out the show.
So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it. Found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
If you have please like comment and subscribe. It really helps. I'm Andy Gorham, and you've been listening to the sticky from the inside podcast until next time.
Thanks for listening.
Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.
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