Dance Floor Theory: A Simple Way To Solve The Complexity Of Employee Engagement
- Andy Goram
- Apr 9
- 34 min read
Dance Floor Theory: A Simple Way to Solve the Complex Challenge of Employee Engagement
Why does employee engagement still feel so hard?
It’s a question that keeps coming up. Because for all the time, energy, and investment organisations put into it, the reality is… it often doesn’t feel like it’s working.
And that’s what made my latest conversation on my Sticky From The Inside Podcast with Tom Krieglstein so interesting.
Not because he introduced something complicated or revolutionary — but because he made something complex feel simple. Human. Relatable.
His Dance Floor Theory is one of those ideas that, once you hear it, you can’t quite unsee it, and I really love it.
🎧To hear the whole conversation, listen to the full episode here
📄 Prefer to read instead? The full transcript is available at the end of this blog.
Engagement isn’t broken, but our approach to it might be
One of the first things that struck me in this conversation is just how long we’ve been trying to “fix” engagement. Surveys. Scores. Initiatives. Programmes. And yet, the data still tells us the same story.
So maybe the issue isn’t that people don’t care. Maybe it’s that we’ve been trying to solve the wrong problem.
Tom’s perspective flips this on its head. Instead of treating engagement as something to measure or manage, he brings it back to something far more fundamental: Human connection. And that raises an uncomfortable question: Have we overcomplicated something that is, at its core, deeply human?
Connection is the real driver and we’ve been overlooking it
We talk a lot about performance, productivity, and outcomes. But underneath all of that is something much simpler:
People want to feel connected.
To each other.To their leaders.To something bigger than themselves.
Tom makes the point that we are biologically wired for connection and yet, somehow, we act as if that stops at the office door. And when you think about it, a lot of traditional “engagement” efforts miss this entirely. It's something I've been banging on about for years now.
Looking for "quick solutions", they focus on:
Perks
Polls
And communication cascades
But not always on relationships. And without that, everything else starts to feel a bit hollow.
People don’t all engage in the same way, and that matters more than we think
This is where Dance Floor Theory really comes to life. The image is simple:
A dance floor, with people at different levels of participation.
Some right in the middle
Some on the edge
Some not even on the floor
And the key insight?
👉 They’re all in different places, and they need different things
This feels obvious when you picture it. But in practice, we often treat engagement as if it’s one-size-fits-all. We launch a single initiative.Send a single message.Expect a single response.
And then wonder why it doesn’t land.
Tom’s model reminds us that Engagement isn’t binary. It’s a progression
Great leadership starts with meeting people where they are
This was probably the moment in the conversation that stuck with me most. The idea that you wouldn’t walk up to someone standing at the edge of a dance floor and say:
“Come on, let’s break dance.”
It’s obvious. Even a bit cringey. But also incredibly revealing. Because in many workplaces, that’s exactly what we do.
We expect:
Immediate buy-in
Instant enthusiasm
Full engagement
Without really understanding where someone is starting from.
What Dance Floor Theory gives us is permission to slow down and think differently.
To ask:
Where is this person right now?
What do they need next?
What’s the smallest step forward?
Because engagement doesn’t happen in leaps. It happens in steps.
So what does this mean in practice?
For me, there are a few things that really stand out from this conversation. Engagement isn’t something you can force. It’s something you build and it starts with understanding people, not managing them.
Tom shares some wonderfully simple ideas like creating what he calls, “plot twists” to spark attention of those in a "meh!" state of engagement, to connecting people more intentionally.
Nothing overly complex. But all deeply human.
My final thought
I've been working in the field of employee engagement, leadership and culture change for a good while now, and for me, Dance Floor Theory works because it reflects reality. It doesn’t try to simplify people. It simply helps us understand them a bit better.
Full Transcript
(0:11) Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the podcast that explores how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. (0:22) I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help you turn the lights on behind the eyes of your people, light the fires within them and help more of us lead successful, fulfilling work lives. (0:40) This podcast is for anyone who believes that's worth going after and is curious about what really drives people, culture and performance.
(0:48) Each episode we dive into the ideas and conversations that help create what I call stickier businesses, places where people thrive and love to work and where customers stay, recommend you and love what you do and why you do it. (1:04) So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Why employee engagement still isn’t improving
(1:11) Okay then, let me ask you something.
(1:14) Why is it that some organisations feel alive, full of energy, ideas and people who genuinely care about what they do and who they're doing it with, while others feel like everyone's just, I don't know, going through the motions and waiting for other people to do stuff? (1:30) I mean, that is the employee engagement challenge I set this podcast up for originally to find answers to. (1:37) And blimey, over 140 odd episodes, I think we've shone a light on what it really takes to tackle that question and work, become more fulfilling and successful for everyone.
(1:48) But in real honesty, the needle on engagement hasn't moved in decades. (1:53) In fact, it's probably getting worse. (1:56) Now why?
(1:57) Well, I still think too many of us are focused on the wrong things or still looking for quick fixes. (2:07) Employee engagement isn't about perks, pizzas and poll surveys or trying to push people to care as much as you do and work longer and harder. (2:17) But it is about something far more powerful for me.
(2:20) It's about finding the link between what really drives the business and what drives the people within it. (2:25) It's about creating a place where people want to be, where they want to stay, where they're prepared to work hard, to try things, to speak up and say good things about the organisation to others when you're not there. (2:39) And yet so many of us are still scratching our heads wondering why engagement feels so hard.
(2:46) Well, my guest today believes it's because we've probably been asking the wrong questions and trying to force the wrong outcomes. (2:53) Tom Krieglstein has spent over 20 years helping organisations unlock the full potential of their people by focusing on something deeply human. (3:03) Connection.
(3:04) He's the creator of the wonderful dance floor theory, a brilliantly simple way of understanding how people actually engage at work, why some of us are right in the middle and why others hang back at the edges and why you can't just drag anyone onto the dance floor if they don't want to be there and expect them to dance. (3:24) In this conversation, I hope we're going to explore how we can create the conditions that invite people in. (3:33) Why engagement in reality happens just one step at a time, what it really takes to build a workplace people want to be part of, not just turn up to because they have to.
(3:43) Tom, welcome to the show, my friend.
Meet Tom Krieglstein and the power of connection
Tom Krieglstein
(3:47) Andy, it is a pleasure. (3:49) And I have to say to you, kudos for pronouncing my last name correctly. (3:55) That alone, that alone puts you above 99.9% of people.
Andy Goram
(4:00) Mate, as a podcast host, that is the first bit of jeopardy. (4:04) I think when you have a guest on, it's like, oh my God, how do I pronounce their name? (4:09) And we've had some really interesting names, but I'm glad I got it right.
(4:12) You know what? (4:12) We talk about connection. (4:14) The very basic fundamental of connection, I think, is using somebody's name and using it correctly.
Tom Krieglstein
(4:20) Yeah. (4:20) Yeah. (4:20) People love their name.
(4:21) There's some science behind it that when people hear their name, it somehow blocks out other, like it just like gets them super focused.
Andy Goram
(4:28) Isn't it called the cocktail party theory? That when you're having a chat with somebody at a cocktail party and you're supposed to be listening to them, you hear your name mentioned by somebody else and that's all you can focus on.
Tom Krieglstein
(4:38) Yeah. (4:38) The names are important. (4:39) And in the program, I know we're going to get to it, but when we're building a connection with someone, I use this thing called the C.A.T.S.I. system to be able to start a conversation with someone that maybe you don't know, or you're someone who's not necessarily good at just starting random conversations.
(4:55) And in the C.A.T.S.I. system, actually what we do is we save the name until the very end. (5:02) So after we have an emotional connection with the person and we found out a similar thing that you and I have together, then at the end I go, oh, by the way, my name's Tom. (5:12) What's your name?
(5:14) And then you're supposed to repeat it back. (5:16) Did you say Andy? (5:17) Is that with a Y or an I?
(5:19) Oh, well, nice to meet you, Andy. (5:21) Because now we have this emotional connection to the name versus saying it up front and then poof, it's gone.
Andy Goram
(5:28) I love that. (5:29) Listen, we're off already. (5:30) I've not even asked you any questions yet, Tom, and we're just straight in.
(5:34) I would like very much, before we get too overexcited with this topic, which is going to happen today, I know it is, can you just do us a quick favor? (5:43) Just give me a good snapshot of who you are, what you've been up to, and where your focus is today, please, Tom.
Tom Krieglstein
(5:49) Yeah. (5:50) So my name's Tom Krieglstein, and I run an organization called Swift Kick Leadership. (5:57) What we do is we help leaders to better engage their people.
(6:02) That is the core work we do. (6:04) We do it through a philosophy or a framework called dance floor theory. (6:09) And I love when I go to programs or keynotes or conferences and I say, today we're going to talk about dance floor theory, and I just love watching the audience lock up because they think they're about to dance.
(6:22) Spoiler alert, they don't have to dance. (6:25) But I love leaving them on the edge of their seat thinking they might have to. (6:30) So that's the work I've been doing for 25 years now.
(6:35) And it started originally with working with student leaders of clubs and organizations on how they can better engage their students in their organizations. (6:45) And then those students graduated and then they went to corporations. (6:49) And while they're at that corporation, they would be like, huh, Tom, you know that dance floor theory thing you did back for our college?
(6:56) Well, I have a team, and it's kind of like a dance floor. (7:00) Can you come in and talk to my managers and help them to better engage their people? (7:05) And so then that's how I transitioned into doing more corporate work.
(7:08) But then what happened is nonprofits showed up. (7:11) A church, a head of a church showed up and said, Tom, this dance floor theory thing, like my congregation is kind of like a dance floor. (7:18) Can you come in and talk to my team and help us to better engage our people?
(7:22) And then associations showed up and then paid organizations showed up and then goat yoga showed up. (7:28) No, I'm kidding. (7:31) I don't work with goats, people.
Andy Goram
(7:33) I mean, I would never say never, Tom, right? (7:37) Just, just, let's just, just, you know, it's been a long time, 25 years, things are evolving. (7:41) Um, I was going to ask you what drew you into the world of engagement and you've just sort of explained it really, because I think I watched one of, it must be one of your early videos, although you look ridiculously young for somebody who's been doing this sort of stuff for 25 years.
(7:54) But I think that was a college presentation. (7:57) And I think you had like 20 seconds, a slide for something like six slides or something that, that if you can distill the energy and essence of this dance floor theory in, in that amount of time and connect, I can see where this comes across. (8:10) But it's no wonder to me, having just heard what you said about how many people this stuff now touches, because connection is a human thing, right?
(8:19) It's, it's, it's not just for college students or just for business. (8:23) It could, I guess, in some shape or form be extended to goat yoga in the future. (8:28) But this is, this is, this is stuff is transferable everywhere.
(8:31) We talk about employee engagement as a, as a loose topic here, but we're really just talking about engaging with people, aren't we?
More friends equals more fun: the social truth of engagement
Tom Krieglstein
(8:37) Ultimately, that's why, that's why our first and foremost lesson of the dance floor. (8:44) The more friends you have on a dance, the more fun that dance is going to be and the longer it's going to last. (8:50) That's why it is the core first message I bring up front.
(8:54) Now with that though, is of course, I go into corporations. (8:58) I was at Apple with working with the like top managers. (9:02) And that's my third slide is more friends equals more fun.
(9:05) And I, I looked over and there was the head of IT and the IT, I'm like, I see the doubt in your eyes right now. (9:12) I feel like, wow, how much did we pay this guy to come in here and tell us that more friends equals more fun? (9:18) So then I click to another slide.
(9:19) And then that next slide, what I say, as I say, Gallup research shows that when teams are more socially connected, engagement, productivity, and retention rates go up. (9:30) And then I show them a stat about IBM that they did an internal study at IBM that found that every (9:35) new social connection that they made between different departments added $948 to the bottom (9:42) line of that department or Accenture found that companies that have more social connections has (9:47) 7.4% increase in revenue and bank of America installed a break room, a communal break room (9:56) in one of their call centers.
(9:58) And just the simple fact of the team being able to bond on their break increased the improvement of the call handling team cohesion by 18%. (10:06) And that call center increased its productivity for the year by one $15 million from this one break room. (10:15) We're biologically wired to be connected as humans.
(10:19) And somehow we feel like that stops as soon as we enter into the office.
Andy Goram
(10:24) It's crazy, isn't it? (10:25) I mean, I have had clients in the past when we have been doing things like engagement surveys, question the inclusion of the question, like "I have good friends at work." (10:37) Why do we need to, why do we, why do we need to have that?
(10:40) Can we not just, can we not just get that question out? (10:42) There's too many questions. (10:43) Let's, let's get rid of that question.
(10:45) And you're like, I think you're really kind of missing the point here. (10:49) This is not a fluffy thing. (10:50) This is directly correlated to engaging thriving workplaces.
(10:54) It stands to reason to your rule. (10:56) More friends, more fun.
The uncomfortable data behind disengagement
Tom Krieglstein
(10:57) Add to that, add to that the stats on the other side of it. (11:00) 33% of employees never receive any kind of recognition at work. (11:04) 53% go home unhappy.
(11:06) 58% trust a stranger more than their own manager. (11:10) 79% of employees quit citing a lack of appreciation. (11:14) Like Houston, we have a problem.
Andy Goram
(11:16) Well, this is the thing I wanted to ask you, right? (11:18) Before we dive into the other elements of dance floor three, which I really love by the way, it's just such a fun way of bringing the very real solutions and issues associated with trying to get people to come with you, um, in, in such an engaging way. (11:34) When you first, I guess when you were first pulling all this stuff together, when you were looking, what was, what was going on?
(11:41) What were you seeing? (11:42) What patterns were you seeing that other people have clearly missed or were struggling to kind of pull the threads together to find solutions and way forward? (11:51) How did it all kind of begin for you?
Tom Krieglstein
(11:54) The origins of dance floor theory, uh, is a friend of mine had a tech company in LA. (12:01) They wanted to expand into the New York city of market. (12:05) And it was a tech company meant for young, younger crowd, like a young adults.
(12:09) And so they wanted to build their connection with young adults. (12:13) And so they thought, let's go to the dance clubs and start like building connections there. (12:18) My friend goes into the first dance club and it's dead.
(12:21) Like it's just a dead atmosphere. (12:23) And this guy named Marcus, a huge tall black man walks in and within 15 minutes, Marcus had changed the entire atmosphere of that dance floor. (12:35) And my friend saw it happening.
(12:37) And he's like, what? (12:39) And so he goes up to Marcus, like, what did you just do? (12:42) And Marcus said back to him, he's like, ah, this is dance floors are all the same.
(12:46) Humans are all the same. (12:48) It's, it's, it's about the dynamic of the relationships on the dance floor. (12:52) And he's like, I kind of call it, he didn't say dance floor theory, but he's like some version of that.
(12:58) And then Marcus said, let me show you what I mean. (13:00) They left, went to another club and he did it again. (13:03) And so from that moment, by the way, we, we don't know where Marcus is or who he is.
(13:08) Maybe he doesn't exist at all. (13:10) And, uh, maybe like it was a person who just came into this world that give us this thing, this theory, and then disappeared. (13:16) But what happened is then my friend held onto that.
(13:20) And he and I met up doing a, a summer program together for youth. (13:26) And at that summer program, it was at Stanford university. (13:29) And there's a, uh, the, the room set up was that there was a balcony with all the students down in the ground.
(13:35) So it was almost like we got to go for the VIP section of the dance floor. (13:40) And we were looking down at all 120 students mingling, associating. (13:45) And he turned to me and he said, I ever told you about the theory I have with dance floors?
(13:51) And then I'm like, what, huh? (13:53) And then he should, he talked to me about it, about what happened with Marcus. (13:56) And I looked down here and I go, Kevin, like this is happening right here.
(14:02) And that led he and I on a journey of building out the curriculum for it so that we could then go to any leader anywhere and say, Hey, your world, your people are a dance floor. (14:17) And there's some rules that guide that dance floor and they're universal. (14:21) And once you understand these universal rules, you can better engage them.
(14:27) And that's where it went from there.
Andy Goram
(14:29) I love it. (14:30) And you know, some of these origin, the best origin stories are really simple in the moment things that have happened. (14:37) And so you get this kind of big, nice piece of clarity, clarity out of something that's happening every day. (14:41) And people are just missing it.
(14:42) You know, I, I, I love that stuff. (14:44) And it's, it feels to me like it's been a life's work for you as well, which is, is, which is awesome having that kind of purpose.
The decline of community and its impact on work
Tom Krieglstein
(14:50) Let me say the life's work is I believe the world would be a better place if more people were plugged into positive, supportive communities. (14:59) That's the life's work because these are both these books here. (15:04) I'm going to hold them up.
(15:05) I don't know. (15:06) We'll have camera or not, but bowling alone and the death and the birth of life of the great American city. (15:12) Both of these books talk about, uh, the demise of community specifically here in the United States, but you could extrapolate it anywhere.
(15:23) I bet you could. (15:23) Yeah. (15:24) And, and then attached to that demise of community are all of the social ills that are increasing.
(15:31) And so I genuinely believe that the reason we continuously are having these increasing social ills is because community has been destroyed. (15:41) Uh, people no longer have a place where they go deep with a group of people over an extended period of time that doesn't exist nearly as much as it used to.
Andy Goram
(15:52) Yeah. (15:53) If I think about the very best places that I have been fortunate enough to work in, there was a definite sense of community there.
Tom Krieglstein
(16:00) Tell me, what would you say then, just like what were the ingredients that you, you would say definitely had a sense of community?
Andy Goram
(16:05) I will say, and this will be an overplayed word today. (16:09) There was a definite sense of connection. (16:11) And what does it mean?
(16:11) Sense of connection. (16:13) There were clear and obvious organizational things that I think we were all drawn to, but there were very, very similar behaviors with inside that business that people showed each other, whether it be courtesy or respect or support, whatever that might be, there was that connection. (16:30) There's connection, definite connection.
(16:31) There was energy. (16:33) There was real energy. (16:35) And that also bred a feeling of confidence in each other.
(16:39) You're allowed to go and do things or say things and stand up and do things. (16:43) And without any real fear of, of, of looking daft. (16:48) I mean, I looked dark plenty of times, but that was fine.
(16:50) It was part of the process. (16:51) Right?
What great workplace cultures actually feel like
Tom Krieglstein
(16:52) So yeah. (16:52) So technically we, well, let's call that psychological safety. (16:55) There was psychological safety where you, anyone felt comfortable enough to say what needed to be said without repercussion or mess up and not have it be a huge issue.
(17:08) Okay. (17:08) So we got to what else?
Andy Goram
(17:09) And I think that within there, particularly there was a real clarity on how we contributed like in the roles that we had, we had a real, we could see ourselves in the bigger picture, right? (17:22) Definitely see ourselves in the bigger picture. (17:24) But what I, I think on reflection, and I don't know if this was really intentional at the time, pretty much everybody else knew what everybody else was doing.
(17:32) And that wasn't that they were in their business, but they understood what other people did. (17:37) And I think what that made was it was a very fluid place to go and ask for help or have, have people kind of check in. (17:45) Or when you were in a, in a project group, it was, it was full of different perspectives, um, that were, that were well understood in the room.
(17:53) That, that was a definite difference. (17:55) I think.
Tom Krieglstein
(17:55) So if we go, if we go now, I'm going to just label them as you go through it, I'm going to switch the first one from connection to sense of belonging. (18:03) So there are sense of belonging, there's psychological safe safety, and there was a purpose. (18:09) Yeah.
(18:10) Like you all knew why you were there. (18:12) You are all driving towards something. (18:16) 100%.
(18:16) Okay. (18:17) Any others? (18:18) This is good.
(18:18) This is good.
Andy Goram
(18:20) Then, I think the sense of community was, these were people that I would speak to, not just in work. (18:26) Do you know what I mean? (18:27) There was, there was the extension outside of the work.
(18:29) We worked well together, but there was stuff outside and where, where you could really be yourself. (18:34) And I think that was, that was one thing. (18:37) And I think the standout thing, and I know talking to people about this a lot is that whilst I was probably the happiest I've been in my career and the most productive, it was the most challenging environment.
(18:49) Um, it was, it was uncomfortable at times, but in a, I guess in a universal way. (18:55) And what do I mean by that? (18:56) I mean that things were challenged.
(18:59) You didn't get an easy ride, but we were very, very conscious that the challenge was about the thing rather than the person who was bringing the thing to the table. (19:08) That was a clear distinction. (19:10) I'm quite an emotional guy.
(19:11) There were plenty of times I walked out of meetings feeling a bit, a bit sad or with tears in my eyes or whatever else, but that was because we cared about it. (19:19) And the challenge wasn't about me necessarily. (19:22) It was about the thing that, that was a very, very distinctive difference.
Tom Krieglstein
(19:26) Yeah. (19:26) I love it. (19:27) I love piecing together.
(19:28) What are the ingredients that make a community? (19:31) I haven't written this book yet, but it's going to come pre COVID. (19:34) I went to all of the most popular longstanding meetup groups in New York city.
(19:39) So from meetup.com, they have these groups, affinity groups. (19:44) And I was like, what keeps some of these together for an extended period of time? (19:48) What is it?
(19:48) There's gotta be common thread. (19:50) So I ended up going to some of the most random, it was like, uh, one of them was a group of knitters who were grieving. (19:58) So what they would do is they, cause they just lost someone in their life or there's some grief happening, but they would bond over the fact that they knitted and that was their process.
(20:07) So very random, uh, groups. (20:10) And, uh, I extrapolated from that, like, what are the core ingredients here? (20:14) What is it?
(20:15) There's some of the other ones. (20:17) So those three though, by the way, are definitely three other one was there was an in language that existed. (20:23) There were like, there were words and phrases that were used within that group that meant something.
(20:29) But if I, heard that I would have no clue, but then them sharing it to me, they got excited to share it, but also then by sharing it, it bonded them all together. (20:41) Uh, there was usually a clear person in charge, but they weren't in charge. (20:48) Like they, we all knew who, who ran this thing, but it wasn't a dictatorship.
(20:53) It was definitely a shared responsibility of like, we're building this together. (21:00) That sense of shared responsibility is critical.
Andy Goram
(21:03) Yeah.
Tom Krieglstein
(21:03) Other, other ones, uh, just a couple more than we go on is, uh, another one was there were, uh, there were, um, traditions. (21:10) They had their traditions. (21:12) And I say that traditions are the social habit of engagement that within any group, and this goes back to businesses have traditions in place.
(21:24) I, uh, I was working with a university once and the provost spoke before me and the provost was talking to all these first-year students. (21:33) The provost, she said, just so you know, we have a tradition here at UMass Boston that when you, if you see the mascot on the first day of school, which was that day on the first day of school and run up and rub the mascots nose, you get academic luck for the year. (21:49) Of course, the mascot walks in the room, a thousand students run over and rub the mascot.
(21:55) Yeah. (21:56) And I go up to the provost. (21:57) I'm like, that's amazing.
(21:58) You just got a thousand students to do something. (22:01) That's impressive. (22:01) How long has this tradition been going on?
(22:05) And she turned to me and says, oh, I just made it up. (22:07) I've started the tradition now. (22:09) And I think I say that because I think so many people think traditions have to this long history, but it started somewhere.
(22:16) If you don't have traditions in your community, your team, start it now.
Andy Goram
(22:20) Absolutely. (22:21) I think the biggest enemy of cultural shift is people waiting for somebody else to do something. (22:25) If we want to make some change, let's go make the change.
(22:28) Ultimately, I think, um, just on the basis of the community link, I just want to ask you a question for, we get into your wonderful theory in all the work that you've done and all the amazing companies that you visit and go and try and help. (22:44) Do you still get the sense based on all the stats we've, we've talked about today? (22:49) Do you get the sense that engagement is broken or that we're just, we're just missing something?
Tom Krieglstein
(22:54) Uh, well, I mean, statistically it's broken.
Andy Goram
(22:58) Statistically it is, but is that what, is that what you see? (23:00) Is that what you feel when you're inside these, these, these businesses or are we just, are we just barking up the wrong tree?
Tom Krieglstein
(23:09) Um, I do, I do see broken systems. (23:13) I do see a broken engagement and on the flip side, I see organizations that I go in, I'm like, wow, this is, this is amazing. (23:23) Like this place, it has all of the ingredients happening.
(23:27) And in the reason why I say I see broken as well, and then they're not the ones I like going to working with because they're broken. (23:36) Cause I walk into a room of people that are like they're disgruntled managers themselves. (23:41) And so like, I'm here to teach you how to better engage your people and you're, you're not disengaged yourself.
(23:47) Yeah. (23:48) And again, Gallup research says we're at a 10 year low for employee engagement. (23:53) Uh, and, and I think even before we step onto the dance floor, like in there's levels of engagement on the dance floor.
(24:01) Before we even get to that, Frederick Hertzberg was the first, uh, psychologist who studied employee engagement. (24:07) He said, there's two, there's two versions, uh, that you need, uh, motivators. (24:11) There's intrinsic and there's hygienic, hygienic motivators are all of the tactical things like is the, is the, uh, the pay fair is the, uh, the work hours fair is the, the, the effort, the work, all of it.
(24:26) Is it fair? (24:27) Is it gender equality? (24:29) Uh, do we have time off for, for, for pregnancies or whatnot?
(24:33) It's all that fair. (24:34) And that has to be solved before we can even talk about anything over on intrinsic side. (24:41) And I go into so many organizations and I find out that women are paid less than men, that the workload is thrown in one person's bucket and the executive team's investing while the rest of the team's working their ass off.
(24:56) First and foremost, I think that has to be solved before we can even step onto the dance floor.
Andy Goram
(25:02) Yeah, absolutely. (25:03) The table stakes, the table stakes, as I will call them, you've got to play those, but I really care about sharing your dance floor theory with the audience today. (25:13) So look, you, you've given us the first rule of dance floor theory in more friends equals more fun.
(25:18) So take us, take us deeper into this dance floor theory and why, why it's something everyone needs to get their head around. (25:25) If we really want to have thriving, engaging people in our organizations.
Introducing Dance Floor Theory
Tom Krieglstein
(25:31) Okay. (25:32) Visualize the dance floor. (25:34) We've all seen it or been there.
(25:36) Now go to that VIP section, look at it from the top down. (25:40) And Andy, this is a pop quiz for you. (25:42) If you're looking at that dance floor, if you're looking at that dance floor, where on that dance floor, don't overthink it, are the most engaged dancers?
Andy Goram
(25:51) Oh, bang, bang in the centre, mate.
Tom Krieglstein
(25:53) They are having fun meeting people dancing, right? (25:57) That's, that's going off. (25:59) And again, don't overthink it, but on a dance floor, the least engaged dancers typically are hanging out where?
Andy Goram
(26:05) Up against the wall.
Tom Krieglstein
(26:06) On the edge. (26:07) Right. (26:08) Okay.
(26:08) So if we took those two, by the way, and, and Gallup would say you either have engaged employees or disengaged employees. (26:15) They have actively disengaged. (26:17) We'll get to in a moment, but on the dance floor, they say you have engaged or disengaged.
(26:21) Humans are way more robust than just you're in or you're out. (26:25) Yeah. (26:26) And so we have the engaged person disengaged.
(26:28) And then in between we have other levels. (26:31) We on the dance floor have taken Gallup's work and we see on the dance floor, there are six levels.
Andy Goram
(26:39) Okay. (26:39) Wow.
The six levels of engagement explained
Tom Krieglstein
(26:40) And each level, and this is important. (26:43) If I'm trying to engage that dance floor, I'm not going to go to the person at the edge and be like, let's go break dance. (26:49) Come on, let's do this.
(26:51) Like it's not where they're at. (26:53) And the same thing with the person in the middle. (26:56) I'm not going to try and do something that way I would do for the person on the edge to engage them because they're, they're at a whole other level.
(27:05) And so the second big lesson of dance floor theory says that on any dance floor, there's always going to be different levels of engagement. (27:16) And that is true for any organization, any team on any team, there's always going to be different levels within dance floor theory. (27:24) We gave, we give them numbers to make the conversation easy.
(27:27) So our middle people, those are our level five leaders. (27:30) Then you have your fours, your threes, your twos, your ones. (27:32) And then all the way at the edge, we have our neutrals, our least engaged people.
(27:37) That is the second lesson dance floor theory. (27:40) Now let's take Gallup's research, which says that 32% of employees are engaged and 51% are disengaged. (27:50) Again, though, there's that 17% now because I know there's public math people.
(27:54) There's 70% out there who are like, who's that? (27:57) And that's the actively disengaged. (27:58) And we're going to get to those.
(28:00) But right now we have two groups, engaged and disengaged. (28:04) If we map that over our dance floor, neutrals and ones are your disengaged, two, three, fours and fives are your engaged. (28:15) That is now where we're at with dance floor theory.
(28:20) What about those actively disengaged? (28:22) Because it makes up 17%. (28:24) Well, in dance floor theory, they're the ones that are actively trying to destroy your dance floor.
Dealing with disengagement: Negative Nellies
(28:30) And we label them Negative Nellies. (28:34) And the thing is, though, negative Nellies come in three different varieties. (28:41) And the way I'm going to show you what those three are and why it's important to talk about the negative Nellies is because if you don't deal with the negative Nellies, every dollar you put into trying to fix your dance floor is going to be destroyed by that negative Nellie still in your organization.
(28:59) So I say you have to fix the negative Nellies before we can again get into the dance floor. (29:05) And so there are three types. (29:07) The way I'm going to show you the three types is that I have a framework within dance floor theory called the competency contribution framework, that every employment engagement survey can be dwindled down to these two things.
(29:23) How competent is the person? (29:26) Do they consistently deliver results that meet or exceed expectations tactically, like their skill? (29:32) And then contribution is, does this person care about the success of the whole organization?
(29:38) So you have those two frameworks. (29:40) You have pluses and minuses. (29:41) So now you have that four quadrant situation.
(29:45) The dance floor is in the upper right. (29:47) That's neutral one, two, three, four, and five. (29:49) But now you have three quadrants of negative Nellies.
(29:51) In the bottom left, horrible competency, horrible contribution. (29:56) We call them the duds and deadbeats. (29:59) Get rid of them.
(30:00) There's no surviving that group. (30:02) They're done. (30:03) But then in the lower right, you have people who high contribution, but low competency.
(30:11) Everyone loves them. (30:12) They love the organization. (30:14) They live and breathe your values.
(30:16) But every time they submit a work, by the way, that's late, someone else has to go and clean it up. (30:21) Their competency is really low. (30:23) We call these your friendly failures.
(30:25) And then the last group is in the upper left. (30:30) They are crushing their job. (30:32) They are your top salesperson.
(30:34) They bring in all your profit and revenue, but they also steal all the clients from your other salespeople. (30:41) They talk crap about the organization. (30:43) They have a negative attitude every single day.
(30:45) They refuse to work with anyone else. (30:48) So they have a high competency, but low contribution, a negative contribution. (30:54) We call these people your culture crushers.
(30:57) So leaders have fun with this one. (31:00) What are you going to do? (31:01) Who are you keeping?
(31:03) And then we, we, we do that like in the trainings. (31:06) I'm like, okay, which one are you keeping? (31:08) Are you going to obviously duds and deadbeats gone, but friendly failures, what are you gonna do with them and culture crushers?
(31:14) What are you gonna do with that? (31:15) What would you say, Andy?
Hiring for culture vs competency
Andy Goram
(31:16) This is very strongly related to, I think the sort of performance values matrix that Blanchard used, I think in "Gung Ho" many, many years ago, hence the colour of my hair. (31:27) And I, I, I think this is what I would say. (31:30) Those culture crushers.
(31:32) Well, I'll come to those in a sec. (31:33) The failures competency, I think can be supported and trained so that they have a lifeline, right? (31:39) I'm the, they need coaching and support and development of a choice.
(31:43) They can either get on board or they have to go. (31:46) But me, the concentration there is one of training and coaching the culture crushers. (31:51) I think the brave choice here is to get them out and get them out quickly because they're just poison.
(31:57) They're just poison in your organization. (32:00) And yet these are the guys regularly stood up, you know, reward and awards nights getting gongs and people going, well, they're just an asshole. (32:09) Uh, why, why are they doing that?
(32:10) And all we're doing is reinforcing that that behavior is okay, which is going to just, you know, undermine engagement. (32:16) That, that would be my view. (32:18) That's, that's, that's my take on stuff.
Tom Krieglstein
(32:20) It's a, you're, you're spot on, uh, hire for culture, hire for personality, hire for character, and then train for competency. (32:30) Uh, so higher for contribution, train for competency. (32:33) Uh, so the friendly failures, I'm not going to go through it, but there's a process called the diamond pyramid, the management diamond, and it helps to figure out, okay, what is it about the competency that they're falling short on?
(32:48) And you go through a and, and if that series of questions gets to this last question, which is, uh, they come back at you and say something like, well, the reason, the reason I can't, I can't do this is because my whole life I've, I've been conflict avoidant. (33:05) And, uh, it's just like, I, I, I really, I struggle with, with bringing up issues, uh, with other people. (33:12) Okay.
(33:12) Maybe you could train on that. (33:13) That's fair. (33:14) But we're now in a, a character type situation, or if they said I, or they might say something like, well, to get that done, I have to work with other people in my whole life.
(33:25) I've just never been good at work. (33:26) I don't like working with other people. (33:28) We're at a character issue now, but now, and you and I know, and I can say for my own personal life as well, but like, if you're trying to change someone's character, unless there's something drastic that happens, humans rarely change core character.
(33:48) So you might be able to get that culture crusher to change. (33:50) If you say, Hey, this is our last chance or else you're gone. (33:54) That might be the thing that gets them.
(33:57) But I'm going to go with you, Andy, and say 99.9% of the time, it's smarter to, to get, lose the short-term gain for the long-term gain.
Andy Goram
(34:09) I think that's, that is the big, brave call. (34:11) And I think there's plenty of organizations who have difficult cultures and high levels of engagement because that is the behavior they haven't shut down.
Tom Krieglstein
(34:19) I think. (34:20) So let's say to those people that are listening to this right now, because that is a difficult behavior. (34:25) This is a quote that I held with me from a manager I heard many years ago said, I've never regretted firing someone.
(34:32) I've regretted holding onto them too long.
Andy Goram
(34:36) 100%. (34:36) There may even be a quote directly from one of my workshops, my friend, that's, that's the embarrassing history that I carry around with me. (34:45) I don't know a single person who I had to exit.
(34:49) Shall we say politely that I shouldn't have done way, way earlier than I ended up doing. (34:55) And that was a weakness on my part, wanting to look after people and protect people rather than do the thing that was required too often. (35:03) And so it's easy to learn from those mistakes and try and stop people doing the same thing themselves.
(35:08) But I'm with you a hundred percent, my friend, a hundred percent. (35:10) And just, I'm interested in the, we've got to sort these guys out within your whole dance or thing. (35:17) And I'm sure we'll end up getting into this.
(35:21) In my head, there's always been a bit of organizations putting maybe too much initial focus on the negatives and ignoring where all the energy is when it comes to sort of contagion and momentum. (35:34) Personally, I have a bit of a belief that momentum comes from where the energy comes and using those people to help kind of influence and, uh, and, and drive that, that contagion, if you want, of a good culture. (35:46) Whereas in the negative stuff, whilst it might release some stuff, it's not necessarily where momentum comes from because you've still got a harder push.
(35:53) What's, what's your view on that whole spread? (35:57) How do we, how do we spread the good vibes on the dance floor?
The role of energy, momentum and leadership influence
Tom Krieglstein
(36:00) All right. (36:01) So now we've gotten rid of the negative Nelly's and, and now imagine this situation. (36:05) So there's a dance floor and, uh, you walk onto this dance floor and you see two groups of people and you have to make a choice as to, you have to join one of them.
(36:14) Okay. (36:15) Walk on, you look over here, dancing, having fun, having a great time. (36:18) And then you look over here, arms crossed, grumpy, annoyed.
(36:23) Which one are most people going to choose? (36:25) The one where the energy's upbeat. (36:28) The reason that matters for managers is because the number one reason, fun fact, that people leave their, their job is because of a thing called the vertical couple.
(36:39) And the vertical couple is the relationship between the manager and their person, their employee. (36:45) Uh, that relationship has a huge impact on that employee's decision to stay and appreciation and enjoyment and all that good stuff. (36:54) So as a manager know that there is a thing called the emotional contagion, which says that if people walk into a room, the person with the highest level of energy, both positive or negative will influence everyone else in that room.
(37:10) And why it matters for managers is because if an employee, if an intern walks in with negative energy, it's not going to do much. (37:17) But if a manager walks in with negative energy, it's going to have a massive impact because title magnifies the influence.
Andy Goram
(37:26) I love that. (37:27) And it's a topic we talk about quite a bit on here.
What each engagement level is really thinking
Tom Krieglstein
(37:30) But let's, let's go on to the dance floor now. (37:32) Okay. (37:33) Let's do it.
(37:34) Upper right corner. (37:35) There's six levels, neutral one, two, three, four, and five. (37:37) Each level thinks in a different way and has to be interacted with in a different way.
(37:41) So first I'm going to give you what they're thinking and then we're going to go back down and give you how to engage because this is the core now. (37:48) At the very bottom, the neutrals, they want yesterday to look just like today and they want it to look just like tomorrow. (37:54) In terms of your organization, they clock in, clock out, they do the work, but they're physically there, but are they actually there?
(38:03) They don't cause disruptions like the friendly failures, but there's no value add at all. (38:11) So their mental thought in their brain right now is they cross their arms, they look at you, and they go, meh. (38:19) There's zero desire to increase their competency or contribution.
(38:22) Then you move to the ones. (38:24) The ones actually look up and they see that there's an organization here and they go, hmm. (38:29) So now they're thinking, they're actually thinking about something.
(38:31) And then you go to the twos. (38:32) The twos are what I call your free pizza people. (38:35) They're asking, sure, I'll help out, but what's in it for me?
(38:39) That's what they're saying. (38:40) What's in it for me? (38:41) If twos show up to the party, three fours and fives host a party.
(38:45) Threes will say, what am I capable of? (38:47) Fours will say, what's next for me? (38:50) And then fives say, how can I help?
(38:52) So that's the dance floor thought process. (38:55) That's mentally what's going on. (38:57) Now that we know there's these different levels, now we know we can't do one size of engagement works for all because what works for a neutral will not work for a five at all.
How to engage each level effectively
(39:08) So then how do you engage them? (39:11) Going back down to the neutrals, we have to get them to wake up. (39:16) They have to wake up.
(39:17) That's the very first step for neutrals is just to get them to actually wake up. (39:21) And so once they're awake, and in the world of dance floor theory, we do what are called plot twists. (39:28) And plot twists are a pattern interrupt into their day.
(39:35) They think the meeting is supposed to be a meeting where the manager comes in, and everyone sits there and listens, and they go through the agenda. (39:45) But one day, the manager told everyone, all the senior executives, say, hey, when you come in, can you bring a huge jug of water? (39:52) In fact, let's have each of us bring a larger one.
(39:55) We're not going to mention it, but throughout the meeting, just pull it out, put it on the table, and just drink out of it. (40:01) It sounds ridiculous, okay? (40:03) But this is what gets neutrals engaged.
(40:05) Because it starts to get them to wake up. (40:08) Because they're asking the question. (40:09) As soon as neutrals start asking the question, what's going on?
(40:12) Why is this happening? (40:13) You know you got them to go from meh to hmm. (40:17) Okay, now that they're at the hmm stage, this is critical.
(40:21) They're open. (40:22) They're open to receiving something. (40:24) And what they need to receive at the hmm stage is a connection to you as the leader.
(40:30) You as the leader need to build a connection with that person. (40:33) We use the C.A.T.S.I. system. (40:35) Core message there, figure out what you two have in common.
(40:38) Build a connection. (40:39) Get to know them. (40:41) So now they're at hmm stage.
(40:42) They want to build a connection. (40:44) So then you move to the to stage. (40:45) Remember the what's in it for me?
(40:46) Now that you have a connection with them, when you say and they're paying attention, you can say, hey, we have this event coming up after work. (40:55) We need some people to volunteer for it. (40:57) Would you be willing?
(40:58) There's going to be free pizza there. (41:00) I'll buy lunch for everyone. (41:01) And in fact, you know what?
(41:02) I'll throw $50 down to your bonus. (41:05) The twos are going to be like, I'm in. (41:07) Because they're asking, where's the value for them?
(41:11) The four freebies you can give twos, food, money, swag, and credit. (41:17) Credit meaning time off, certificate, whatever it might be. (41:21) Okay, so now you got the twos who are actually showing up, doing more than their role, but they're doing it in a very selfish way because of what's in it for me.
(41:30) Now you move to the threes. (41:32) Remember the threes are asking the question, what am I capable of? (41:36) At this stage, they want to move past themselves and into the larger organization.
(41:44) And this is where the game changes. (41:47) Because at this stage, you as the manager, it's not about you connecting with them. (41:51) It's about them connecting with each other.
(41:54) Your job at the threes is to help them build that sense of belonging and see how they fit into this bigger picture. (42:02) So what I'm going to do as manager is I'm going to connect person A here with person B, because you both have a shared interest in Batman. (42:10) And then they start talking about Batman or whatever it is.
(42:12) I'm going to connect people together. (42:14) And that's important because if I leave the dance floor as the manager, the dance continues on now because they know each other. (42:21) All right, so now they're asking what's capable for me.
(42:22) They're in, they have a sense of belonging, they have friends there, they're feeling the connection. (42:26) Then we move to fours. (42:27) The fours are asking what's next for me.
(42:30) At this stage, they're waiting for you as the manager to do one thing, which is to ask them. (42:37) They don't realize that they could run the next meeting. (42:39) They don't realize that they could head up the next project.
(42:42) But you as a manager know that they have the competency and they're getting there with a contribution. (42:48) And so you say to that person, hey, we have this project coming up and we need a lead. (42:53) I think you would be really great at it.
(42:56) And watch them go dum-dum-dum-dum and step up to the challenge. (43:01) And that brings you then to the fives. (43:03) And the fives are, remember saying, how can I help?
(43:06) All they want to do is have ownership. (43:10) So fours want responsibility, fives want ownership. (43:13) They want to run the show.
(43:15) And this is one of the biggest myths of dance floor theory is that fives are in the middle. (43:20) They're actually not. (43:21) A real five leaves the other fives and goes and works with the neutrals, the ones and the twos, the ones that are the hardest to work with.
(43:29) And does that work? (43:31) That's what makes you a level five leader. (43:33) There you go, Andy.
(43:35) I ploughed through it. (43:38) I rest.
Andy Goram
(43:39) I love it because you've taken the big lump of engagement and you've broken it down into, look, there are different motivations, different feelings going on here. (43:52) And there are different actions for a manager.
(43:54) And I think this is what is brilliant about your theory is that even in a lot of the work in engagement, there are global tactics put out to play. (44:05) You need to do this, communicate this, involve people in this. (44:09) And this is where a lot of that stuff doesn't get taken in.
(44:13) Doesn't end up working because we're not thinking about targeting the message. (44:19) I often think of exactly target. (44:21) I often think about my life in marketing and now in people, I would never send out a global message to all of my customers because it wouldn't be relevant to them.
(44:29) And yet when we think about communicating internally, we seem to have switched off that bit of our memory, you know? (44:34) So I think the targeting thing is crucially important and that's why I'm such a big fan. (44:40) And I thank you for so much for condensing 25 years of work into this conversation today.
(44:46) I am going to try and push you for one more thing if I can, Tom, because at the end of my show, I have this thing called sticky notes where I like to kind of leave people with three practical pieces of advice that you could literally put on a sticky note and stick around your screen to remind you. (45:01) If you were trying to leave managers who are struggling with engagement and listening to this, this episode with your best bits of practical, actionable advice, what would they be, my friend?
Tom’s three Sticky Notes for better engagement
Tom Krieglstein
(45:15) I got it, so three, here it is. (45:16) Number one, do a plot twist at your next meeting. (45:21) If you need examples of plot twists, swiftkickhq.com, we have over a list of 150 of them categorized based on topics. (45:32) So virtual versus in person, on site, like construction workers versus in office, that stuff. (45:38) So that's number one, do a plot twist. (45:40) It's fun to do and it's going to wake up your neutrals, which according to Gallup is your largest pool, neutrals and ones.
(45:47) First thing, plot twist. (45:48) Second thing, take out your phone or your pen and send a random piece of gratitude or appreciation to someone on your team. (46:00) Ideally, these are the ones and twos you want to send it to because the neutrals aren't there, but build the connection with the ones.
(46:06) Do it to someone that wouldn't expect this from you. (46:08) So that's number two, piece of gratitude. (46:11) Do that on a regular basis, by the way.
(46:13) Powerful, powerful. (46:16) And then lastly, number three is in your organization, every week, try to connect two people together that don't know each other yet. (46:27) And to do that, you're going to go to person A and you're going to talk with that person as you're building the connection and you're going to learn that that person loves Batman and then you're going to come over here and learn this person loves Batman and then you are going to connect those two together.
(46:38) Those are my three tactical things that are so you don't have to overhaul culture people to make a change. (46:45) That's my core message. (46:46) No, these are tactical right now.
Andy Goram
(46:49) I think that is brilliant. (46:51) And I think that message about not trying to eat culture in one big bite and little simple practical things you can do every day to connect people to each other and to what the business is trying to do is that is the secret to this stuff. (47:06) Love it.
(47:06) Tom, you're a superstar. (47:08) I've loved meeting you. (47:09) It's been amazing to chat with you.
(47:10) If people would like to find out a bit more about you, engage with the whole dancehall thing. (47:15) Are they heading to SwiftkickHQ.com? (47:17) Where should they track you down?
Tom Krieglstein
(47:18) Yeah, so I'm Tom Krieglstein on all the socials, but good luck spelling that. (47:22) So here's a, here's an easier way in Google type the word Swiftkick and what's going to come up are three things, an 80s rock band called Swiftkick. (47:31) That's having a revival career.
(47:33) Uh, you're going to see teenagers swiftly kicking each other. (47:37) And then you're going to see us. (47:40) Luckily we're the number one slot from there.
(47:42) You're going to find all my socials and all the connections you ever wanted. (47:46) My core ones though are LinkedIn, YouTube. (47:48) Instagram.
(47:50) Sure. (47:51) But LinkedIn and YouTube are my main ones. (47:53) Find me there.
(47:53) Say hi.
Andy Goram
(47:54) Love it, Tom. (47:56) What a pleasure. (47:57) Thank you so much for sharing dancehall theory and everything else that we've talked about today with us.
(48:01) I wish you the best of luck, my friend with this quest. (48:04) And thank you so much for joining us today. (48:06) Appreciate it, Andy.
Tom Krieglstein
(48:07) Thanks so much for having me.
Andy Goram
(48:08) Okay, mate, you take care. (48:10) Well, okay.
(48:11) Everyone that was Tom Krieglstein. (48:14) And if you'd like to find out a bit more about him or any of the topics that we've talked about in today's show, please check out the show notes. (48:23) So that concludes today's episode.
(48:26) I hope you've enjoyed it. (48:28) Found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. (48:37) If you have, please like comment and subscribe.
(48:41) It really helps. (48:43) I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the sticky from the inside podcast until next time. (48:49) Thanks for listening.
Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.
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