The Success Complex: The Hidden Biases Holding You Back

Andy Goram (left) and Adrian Kelly (right) get into the subject of success and what might be holding you back

We don’t question success nearly enough.

We chase it.We measure ourselves by it.We compare our version of it to everyone else’s.

But what if the way we think about success is part of the problem?

In this episode of Sticky From The Inside, Adrian Kelly joins Andy Goram to explore The Success Complex the hidden psychological patterns that shape how we pursue success, and why they can quietly hold us back.

🎧 Listen to the full episode here:

Prefer to read instead? The full transcript is available below the blog.

Success Doesn’t Always Feel Like Success

One of the most striking insights from Adrian’s work is this:

People who look successful… often don’t feel it.

Despite financial security, status, or achievement, many are still searching. Still striving. Still thinking, “I’ll be happy when…” It raises an uncomfortable question: Are we chasing the wrong version of success?

The Success Complex: When We Get in Our Own Way

Adrian introduces the idea of a Success Complex, the blind spots and biases that shape our behaviour. Most of us don’t even realise they’re there. But they show up in subtle ways:

• Playing small because we can’t see beyond our current world

• Measuring ourselves against outdated or external standards

• Avoiding discomfort instead of learning from it

And often, the biggest barrier isn’t opportunity. It’s perception.

Why We Struggle to Improve

One of the most powerful moments in the conversation centres on reflection. Or more accurately… our avoidance of it.

Most people don’t go back and analyse what didn’t work. Not because they can’t.But because it’s uncomfortable. And yet, as Adrian puts it, “that’s where the gold is.”

The Top Gun Lesson in Performance

To bring this to life, Adrian shares the story behind the original Top Gun programme.

Faced with poor performance, the US Navy didn’t look for quick fixes. Instead, they focused on one thing: Deliberate practice.

Analysing performance.Identifying weaknesses.Improving them.Repeating the process.

The result? A dramatic shift from a 1:1 dogfight success ratio to 12:1. Not through talent.But through reflection and repetition.

Motivation Isn’t What You Think

We can also often label people as “unmotivated.” But Adrian challenges that completely.

Most people are motivated.They just lack:

• clarity

• confidence

• or a sense of progress

That’s where small wins matter. Because progress builds belief. And belief fuels action.

A Simpler Way to Think About Success

Strip everything back, and improvement comes down to something surprisingly simple for step rule, which Adrian likens to wheels on a car: Do what matters.Do it well.Do it consistently.Reflect and repeat.

Simple? Yes. Easy? Not even close. That takes real consciousness and intentional choice.

Final Thought

Success isn’t just about what you achieve. It’s about how you think, how you learn, and how you respond when things don’t go to plan.

So maybe the real question isn’t, “Am I successful?”, but, “Am I thinking about success in the right way?”

The Full Transcript

[Andy Goram] (0:11 - 3:30)

Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the podcast that explores how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help you turn the lights on behind the eyes of your people, light the fires within them and help more of us lead successful, fulfilling work lives. This podcast is for anyone who believes that's worth going after and is curious about what really drives people, culture and performance.

Each episode we dive into the ideas and conversations that help create what I call stickier businesses, places where people thrive and love to work and where customers stay, recommend you and love what you do and why you do it. So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.

Rethinking success: pressure, comparison, and hidden cost

Okay then, let's talk about success.

It's a word we rarely question. We build careers around it, measure ourselves by it, quietly maybe compare our version of it with everyone else's. But in my time, I've known some people who look hugely successful on paper but they don't always seem settled.

Maybe the drive that got them there starts to weigh a little heavier. Maybe striving for success creates more pressure than purpose. Well, today to explore this topic, I'm joined by Adrian Kelly who's the author of The Success Complex and he brings a fantastic performance psychology lens to this topic of success.

Now, I've spoken to Adrian before on another show on Engage for Success Radio about redefining success, about moving beyond the chasing of titles and recognition towards something more balanced and meaningful. But what stayed with me since that conversation is what might be bubbling underneath the surface of this success stuff, of our quest for it, or maybe even in times our avoidance of it. And if success becomes part of our identity, does that change how we see ourselves or even how we judge others?

If we label someone as unmotivated, are we actually seeing the real picture or just measuring them against our own perspective of success? And what about in high-performing environments, in teams where the big problems, maybe they're largely solved and dealt with? Does success mean we become far more sensitive to the smaller ones and do those expectations quietly rise in ways that create new tensions or new forms of success stress that feel hard to deal with and address?

I don't know. Well, I hope today's episode helps us understand success a bit better, how it maybe shapes our behaviour, even culture and wellbeing at work, where it serves us brilliantly and where it might start to cost us something maybe. So I'm looking forward to chatting to Adrian today.

Adrian, welcome to the show, my friend.

[Adrian Kelly] (3:30 - 3:37)

Hi, Andy. Great to be back speaking to you. Slightly intimidated. There's a lot of questions in there, but looking forward to digging in.

[Andy Goram] (3:37 - 4:06)

I always like to try and cover a lot and then we'll see what we cover. As I know, having spoken to you before, it's dead easy to get stuck into some of the detail in this stuff and wander off into the horizon, having had a lovely time. Maybe not answered all the questions we set out to, but had a good time nonetheless.

I don't mind. It's just a great opportunity to sit down with you. Adrian, do me a favour for my guest.

It's a different show we talked on before. Just give a little bit of introduction to you and where your focus is today.

Adrian Kelly’s journey: from law to performance psychology

[Adrian Kelly] (4:07 - 7:46)

Yeah, absolutely. So in a snapshot are some of the highlights. I'm a solicitor by trade, was a criminal solicitor for six years.

Academically at school, I was a very poor student and no one's fault but my own. Scraped my way into a bargain basement law degree and found that the legal profession suited me in many ways. And for our younger listeners out there, I think it is important to know that while school tests a lot of our skills, it's only when you find what really interests you that things start to get a little bit easier, I find.

And once you actually want to learn the information that you're being taught, that makes a world of difference. So just to add that nugget in there. So I enjoyed being a solicitor.

I worked in a very busy criminal practice and the thing that changed me around 2010 was the financial crisis. And what had happened there was in the legal profession in Ireland, a lot of solicitors were doing good veins and buying and selling houses. But when the crash happened, they were all getting out of that because there were no houses to buy or sell.

So they all invaded the district courts where we were and it meant that the solicitors went from five solicitors to 25 just chasing the same work. And the government also cut all the legal aid fees by about 25%. It still hasn't gone back.

So I thought that it was a good time to make an exit, make a change. And a friend of mine had invented this technology, renewable energy technology, and asked me to help him. So I did and we set up a renewable energy company.

It was great tech. We actually won the Technology of the Year Award by Engineers Ireland 2013. So it was very innovative renewable energy technology.

And we grew the company quite quickly to about 30 staff and I spent about eight years traveling around putting in place license deals and all sorts of deals for that company. We mostly exported products out of China into America. That was kind of our main market.

But ultimately we didn't export or sell enough products. And I left in 2018 and the company kind of continued till 2022. But unfortunately COVID with supply chains shutting down and everything else meant the end of the company, which was quite sad.

But I moved into an area of consultancy. I had a choice to go back to law and I had been there and worn the t-shirt. So instead decided to use my kind of business knowledge from having set up a company and help grown it over the previous eight years to work with government in Ireland and also large law firms as a consultant.

And that was a nice life. And then Brexit came along and all that work exploded. It got so busy.

I set up a company called Brexit Plan and I worked with about 150 businesses over 18 months to two years advising them in all sorts of imports, exports, employment contracts, you name it. Paid for by the government. And then during COVID, like most people, re-evaluated where I was from a career perspective and decided to do a non-fiction writing course.

And one of the parts of that course was to write a book proposal, which I did. And the publisher liked it and said we'll publish that book if you write it, which I hadn't intended doing at all. But that set this whole new course in life for me.

So I wrote the book over the next three years and then the book became an Amazon bestseller, which was great. And then I decided I better get some qualifications in performance psychology. So I'm now finishing second year of a master's degree in performance psychology in Wales, which I'm loving.

It's great information. And again, it's stuff that I want to know, which makes all the difference.

[Andy Goram] (7:47 - 8:14)

Yeah, I can see in your eyes when you talk about that, your eyes kind of light up. It's like it's clearly got your soul entwined in it. And that's the thing I wanted to try and understand and let you get across to the listeners today.

I mean, success has been a topic you've almost dedicated yourself to over these last few years. What is it about that topic that fascinates you so much and has led to the success complex and now the master's? What is it about it?

Why success fascinates us (and why we rarely question it)

[Adrian Kelly] (8:15 - 8:25)

Yeah, great question. I think it's probably because it's something that appeals to us all at the deep level, as in what are we trying to do anyway, is the question.

[Andy Goram] (8:27 - 8:28)

I mean, there's a deep one to start with.

[Adrian Kelly] (8:28 - 9:34)

You know, we're all going to bed every day and we go to work and do whatever, mostly because we're trying to earn money and, you know, keep the wolf from the door. But a lot of us don't have time to stop and think the why of it all. And I think when we do start to think it out and start to scrape some space out for ourselves to kind of find more direction and more meaning in life, that can be very worthwhile.

You asked me what's been on the interest. Well, being a criminal solicitor, unfortunately, I worked with a lot of... Well, fortunately for me, I enjoyed the work and I felt I helped people, but I worked with a lot of unfortunate people in unfortunate circumstances in broken homes, mismanaged lives, people who had obviously performance psychology issues of every sort.

The illusion of success and the “I’ll be happy tomorrow” trap

And then when I worked with those businesses that I mentioned, the thing that struck me over and over again was regardless of financial well-being and material success, most of the people I spoke to weren't that happy. You know, they might be managing big, big companies, but they're all looking around to see what else they could do. It wasn't the fulfilling success that it might seem from the outside, if that makes sense.

[Andy Goram] (9:35 - 10:20)

Yeah, I'll be happy tomorrow. I've spoken to loads of people like that. It's like, I'm stressed and I'm under it.

I'm not having a good time, but it's all for the thing tomorrow. And then tomorrow never seems to come around the corner. You know, so I don't know.

I think maybe that's part of that. I mean, you mentioned COVID. I wonder if that's part of that.

I hate the phrase, but the reset, you know, the great reset where people just had time to think about perhaps what was important. I mean, you've referenced that already. And I don't know, maybe that's where some of us have gone, do you know what I need?

I need something different. And I think this is what's fascinating about this topic of success, because I wrote down here, I need to ask Adrian what his definition of success is. And as I wrote it down, I went, that's a mad question because there isn't one single definition, is there?

[Adrian Kelly] (10:21 - 12:08)

No, it's your own personal definition of what success means to you. Ultimately, that's true success. And that sounds like a cop out.

It sounds like something you might, you know, the Wizard of Oz or something. If you just click your heels together, you know, dream of what success means to you. But in the book, what I try to do, and I think this is a good place to start.

The Success Complex: blind spots and self-sabotage

The title of the book, first of all, Success Complex is a complex in the sense of a fear of heights or small spaces. So if I had a complex about heights, I wouldn't want to climb a big ladder. What's your success complex?

Most people don't even realize that they have one, but there are very typical blind spots that hold people back from achieving things they want to achieve, even overtly. You know, they might be aware of where they want to get to, whether it's that career ladder, whether it's a monetary sum, whether it's a new car, whatever the hell it is, relationships. And usually what holds them back is themselves.

And there's some absolutely fabulous work done in the early, mid, late 1970s by Daniel Kahneman and Amos Dvorsky, who essentially supercharged this area of research. They were both psychologists, and Daniel Kahneman actually wrote a very famous book called Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow, which I'm sure will, yeah. And he later won the Nobel Prize in Economics.

A psychologist winning a prize in economics is a very rare thing, but his prize was for the fact that he actually demonstrated that people are irrational when it comes to financial decisions. And models that assume rationality are incorrect. And he focused a lot on different aspects of irrationality.

And that's really a great place to start in this conversation, because a lot of what holds us back from getting what we want is usually some irrational blind spot. And there's a couple of those which I'd like to cover in our conversation, but I'll let you guide where you want to go.

[Andy Goram] (12:09 - 12:39)

Well, no, no, no. I'm fascinated by this. The blind spots of success, I think, is great.

I mean, even the statement that you made about, you know, people kind of know where they want to go. I don't know if we all do, do we? I mean, I think that is perhaps the first step of what does success look like.

But I'm absolutely in your court and want to hear more about how we get in our own way and what these blind spots might be, whether it links into some sort of imposter syndrome, whatever it might be. I bet it's really not trying to nick your word, but I bet it's complex on the other side of it.

[Adrian Kelly] (12:41 - 18:50)

Well, the book, how you hook the villain to anything, I think, is you have to show them a level of practicality. I mean, you can talk about esoteric, abstract concepts, but people want, unfortunately, people want a lot of fixes at times. And we have to, you know, so I try and give people some of that as well.

Listen, okay, here's some genuinely practical things you need to understand about yourself, you know, as a starting point. And here they are. So here's number one on my list is anchor bias.

Anchor bias: how our environment limits our thinking

And anchor bias would mean something I came across reflecting now, 20 years ago, when I was a criminal solicitor. And anchoring bias is we judge the world by our past experience. And what that means is, and this is very much Daniel Kahneman's work on him and Dvorsky, it means people struggle to see past their current reference point.

So, you know, so if your world is, you know, a housing estate, a job that's five miles away, and the shopping centre, and maybe the local pub, or leisure world, it's hard to see past that. And there are so many ways that you can help yourself see past that, not only by what you read, the people you associate, role models that you can kind of, you know, you can see other people from your area maybe do well, whatever else. And unfortunately, there's a lot of circumstances in psychology in small towns, which I'm sure your listeners will be familiar with.

Downward comparison is one, so just say your life isn't the way you want it. Well, generally, there's a bias that you'll try and either critique other people who maybe you perceive as more successful than you, to make yourself feel better. That's, you know, and these are all the negative spin-off things of anchoring bias, you know.

The second thing I'd like to focus on, and I do deal with these one by one in the book and offer solutions, is this notion of IQ, this notion of defining potential. And as I get into detail in the book, how IQ tests originated, Alfred Binet, who was a psychometrician, was hired by the French government at the turn of the 19th century, to try and identify shortcomings in the French educational system. And he did that by compiling the first IQ test.

And it wasn't designed to measure potential, and still isn't. It was designed to find blind spots or shortcomings in the educational system. But it's been latched onto as this gold standard of potential.

But what IQ tests don't test for and don't show is intrinsic motivation, you know, adaption, creativity. They can't measure any of those things. Resilience, any of those key things that are very, very important for any sort of business success, or any success as I would regard it, you know.

So that's the second thing. The third thing is, and I'm actually doing a master's thesis on this, is the ability to reflect on past performance. So if things haven't gone the way we want it in the past, people have a reluctance to go back and analyze their past performance.

Reflection as the missing link in performance improvement

And there are five big personality traits, and one of them is conscientiousness. And that means your ability to prepare for things, your ability to kind of self-critique. And study after study after study have shown that people's willingness, probably less than 20% of people, will actually reflect on what didn't go well for them, and try and adjust it.

But right back there, reflection, that's where the gold is. That's where the learning is. If you don't go back there and study what hasn't worked, or what you could do better, well then what chance do you have of actually changing your behaviour to have a more successful outcome next time around?

The Top Gun story: deliberate practice in action

And there's a classic example of this, which is, you know, I think is a great example, and your listeners will be familiar with Top Gun. So Top Gun is actually a true story to an extent. Not with Maverick, but back in the early 1970s, the U.S. Navy had a real problem. The real problem was that their kill rate, their shoot down rate for jets, these Harrier jets, in aerial battles, they call them dogfights, was one-to-one. They were losing one aircraft for every enemy aircraft they shot down, you know, in various wars, including Vietnam, wherever. And so they set up this elite program for pilots, and what they did was, they employed this principle of deliberate practice, which Anders Erikson, who's a very famous psychologist, wrote many books on, including The Making of an Expert, Peak, and various other books which are really worth checking out.

And deliberate practice is about analyzing our performance, immediately pinpointing our weaknesses, addressing those weaknesses, and then doing it again. And what they did was, they had all these mock dogfights, let's say, with the instructors and the students, and the next day, the next morning, they would critique through video and exploring various ways of assessing the performance, and then they would take feedback from the instructors and they'd do it all again. And with that kind of coached element, that's the difference between purposeful practice and deliberate practice.

Purposeful is yourself, critiquing yourself. Deliberate is with a coach. Deliberate is kind of the gold standard.

Over, let's say, an 18-month, two-year period, they changed that ratio from one-to-one to 12-to-one. So they shot down 12 jets for every one jet that lost. So that's a great example of performance improvement.

And just when I'm on that, I think there's, and I can't not say this, there's a great guy, I play a lot of chess, and chess is a great metaphor for success in psychology. And there's a great guy called Noel Studer. He's a grandmaster and he's based in Switzerland.

And he reached 2600, one of the highest ratings in the world. And he talks about three key things for improvement. And here's a guy that knows a lot about improvement.

So he said, basically, do what matters. That's sometimes what we don't do. Do what matters.

Do it to the best of your ability. And do it consistently. And you will improve.

Improvement is not complex. It's simple. Taking that out on, which is what I'm researching, is reflect on how you've done on those trainings, and then do it all again.

[Andy Goram] (18:51 - 20:31)

I think, I mean, there's so many things that I already love. First of all, the whole three of anchor bias, IQ defining potential incorrectly, and the ability to reflect. I think anybody listening to this can recognize where these things get in the way, right, in day-to-day performance.

And I think particularly the lack of maybe desire to reflect on our own performance. There's other unconscious things in there, I guess, as well as the conscientiousness and the big five that might put us off. Sometimes we don't like to look behind the curtain, right, as to what's really going on.

But the second thing, this is going to sound churlish, it's not. I've got Top Gun in my podcast, and it's in my top five films of all time. And to hear the story behind it makes me very happy.

That is a super story. And what a great result, 1 to 1 to 12 to 1. But just pulling attention to the deliberate practice and separating that from purposeful practice.

I love that, sort of coached. Someone's going to push you a little bit, examine the weaknesses, which is sometimes when we'll bail out, right, if we're left on our own devices, unless we're particularly strong. I really like that.

And then, no one in his chest word of threat. I mean, that sounds incredibly simplistic, doesn't it? Do what matters, do it to the best of your ability, and do it consistently.

But that is it in a nutshell, isn't it? That is performance improvement right there. And if you combine that with coaching and an open mind, and I guess bravery, then you're on the route, right, to success.

[Adrian Kelly] (20:31 - 21:46)

That's right. Well, I'm going to leave your listeners on this point of the conversation with a visual, and I'm going to work with an animator at the moment to do some animation to try and really bring these key messages home from performance psychology. If we visualize a car, okay, so the wheels of a car, where the rubber meets the road, where we make the progress. And if there are four wheels, so think of four wheels, just what we spoke of there.

So do what matters, number one. Do it to the best of your ability, do it consistently, and reflect on your performance. If you can do those four things, you'll make a lot of progress.

But if we also think of a car, a car needs fuel. So we need to eat the right things, we need to drink the protein shakes, whatever it is. But also a car needs to be maintained.

If you're driving it too hard, in the red for too long, yeah, bits will start falling off. And as humans, we're a bit like that as well. So there's a great metaphor, you know, even with those things, those four wheels, the rest, the diet, and the approach can make absolutely monumental differences.

And the final thing I'll add to that point is think long term, not short term. Most people overestimate what they'll do, what they can do in a month, but underestimate what they can do in a year. If we stay consistent.

[Andy Goram] (21:47 - 22:23)

I love that. That's a great little soundbite there. That's, I suspect, very true.

I want to ask you a quick question before we leave this blind spot topic. There's a lot of stuff in there, I probably used the wrong word, but there's the, what's holding us back, the negative piece around performance, perhaps not reaching where we could, not fulfilling our potential. Is there links in here, psychologically, perhaps when somebody has been already very, very successful?

Is there a point at which that success is actually inhibitor or a limiter of growth and potential? Has that shown up in your work too?

[Adrian Kelly] (22:25 - 24:43)

Yeah, I'll give you a couple of examples on that. I think, first of all, we always need to reflect on how we approach things, you know, in terms of our own way. Just because something has won the game yesterday doesn't mean it'll win tomorrow's game.

When success becomes a limiter: confirmation bias and stagnation

And if you look, for example, probably the most successful sports person or one of the perceived, Michael Jordan, one of the most perceived successful sports people, he went on to manage the Charlotte Hornets, I think it was. Yes, it was. And I don't think it was a very successful enterprise, but from, by all occurrence, he tried to, you know, similar to Roy Keane, I suppose you could say, as a manager, he tried to treat the rest like he did when he was a player.

You know, he was the alpha male, he gave people a hard time, he didn't back up in conflict, blah, blah, blah, which doesn't always translate to good management. And that sometimes is what good players struggle with when they step into that management role. Secondly, Steve Jobs, just reading a little bit about Steve Jobs lately.

Steve Jobs was dead against, actually, larger screens on phones. He was dead against, if you watch the movie Steve Jobs, styluses, he hated them. You know, you have your fingers, which he had a point.

But after he died, they actually introduced the Apple Pen, they did bigger screens, blah, blah, all of which actually found a good market in various places. So what gets us there isn't always what will get us there tomorrow, I think is a very good message. And confirmation bias is one of the big things we always need to watch out for, because the more data we have, the more we think we see patterns in it, the more we have the likelihood to confirm what we think we already know, rather than actually appraising the data from a, you know, a kind of a neutral position, so to speak.

And the final point I'll make, and one of my favourite movies is the big short, that caused the financial crisis, was these overvalued CDOs, you know, collateralized debt obligations. And while it might not have been easy, if they had put their mind to it, they could have easily valued them properly, and probably avoided the catastrophe that was the financial crash. But people had made so much money for so long on these CDOs, that no, as you said, using look behind the curtain, they weren't willing to look behind the curtain anymore.

And they were only willing to hear what they wanted to hear. And that's always a recipe for disaster.

[Andy Goram] (24:43 - 25:58)

Absolutely. I think that kind of getting into a rut of doing things and they have success, it's relative. Trying new things, expanding your thought, going different routes could release the next, the next big thing, right?

I think that that's definitely getting out of your head. Okay, now we joked at the start about how many questions I put in the intro today. Let's, let's, let's have a think of if we can knock off another one of those.

Okay. And I hear this a lot when I'm in training rooms, or doing development work with, with organisations, this frustration of people who are dealing with people who they believe are not motivated. They're not motivated to try, they're not motivated to succeed, just not motivated.

In fact, they don't, they don't seem to care. From my perspective, I wonder whether this is a very damaging label to be putting on people. I suspect there's a load more going on underneath it.

I know at times when I've maybe appeared unmotivated to colleagues, there's normally something much deeper going on than me not being interested or don't care about stuff. So in your work, does this come up? And, and, and how can we, should we be dealing with people who appear to be unmotivated?

The myth of unmotivated people and the law of small wins

[Adrian Kelly] (25:59 - 28:16)

That's a great question. It's actually a question I got on, on, on live radio in Detroit last September. Oh.

And it really, it really threw me because this is a live show, you know, you had four to six minutes and he said, you know, Adrian, you know, what do you do if people don't want to be motivated? I was like, I was, I was actually, whoa. That's a, that's a tough question.

So I kind of avoided it at the time, but I made sure to research it and think about it a lot afterwards and ruminate on it. And I think there's two things. First of all, you speak about organisations and I think people will, will, will, will find this.

I don't think any organisation can make you happy. It's very difficult to have any group of people under one roof and keep everybody happy and, you know, essentially ensure that they fulfill your goals or, or make sure your job is giving you the fulfillment that you want, because you're there for a particular reason. It's usually a financial one, whatever.

And I think people generally have to accept that it's probably a means to an end in most cases. And that's fine too. Now, in terms of not being motivated, maybe, maybe the interests of the organisation and the individual are very misaligned, in which case either or both probably need to have a conversation and see if there's a better, better place, maybe somewhere else for the individual, or maybe they come to that decision themselves.

But I, I don't think that, that there are that many people that are truly unmotivated. I think we all have goals. I think it comes down to the confidence to chase those goals.

And I think it's about getting, I love the, love the phrase, the law of small wins. So if we want to move in a particular direction, it's a little bit like sailing a boat, you know, you've got to change the direction of the sails and you've got to look for the first puffs of wind in that direction. And that comes from biting off very achievable goals that build momentum, build confidence and start to put those, those building blocks in place to kind of build something worthwhile in that direction.

And I think it's, it's about patience. If you're trying to coach somebody, you know, particularly if we're talking about a parent here that's dealing with a child or whatever, it's about patience and it's about starting small, getting those small wins, building confidence, encouraging the person and hopefully, you know, they'll find their own, their own wind in their sails before long.

[Andy Goram] (28:16 - 29:34)

I think that's the thing that I think potentially puts people off or managers, leaders off is that takes an investment in time and understanding the individual, not a, you mentioned before, people always looking for quick fixes. I think this is the thing that if we really want to motivate an individual, the clue is in that second word, individual. And I think we need to take some time to understand them.

I, I also relate back to the happiness thing. We had Russell Harvey on here talking about resilience a while ago, and he said to remember as a leader, you're not responsible for somebody's happiness, but you do clearly affect their happiness. Right.

Which I, which I really loved and coupled with what you said and what, again, I've probably bored people's senses with my love for James Timpson and his comment around, if you're not happy here, I will help you find your happiness elsewhere. I think it is this coming together and meeting is like, if you're not happy, let's understand, let's have that conversation. Let's understand what's going on, where we can kind of match up the things that the business needs and that drive the business with the things that the individuals need and drive the individuals.

Then that's when the gold starts to come and get mined and great things happen. When we ignore that stuff, it's our own peril, right?

Motivation, alignment, and the role of leaders

[Adrian Kelly] (29:35 - 30:26)

It is. And you know, and to kind of be very practical about it, this is where the interview is so important because we need to assess the limit of interest at the start and interviews, candidates have become so polished. I think it's a competency interview now is more about, give me examples of when this happened and when that happened and how you dealt with it.

Let's talk about fact, not what you might do in some fanciful scenario and, you know, and take references seriously and try, you know, there's that bias as well. The bias comes into it again, where if we're left to our own devices, bias can push us to hire people similar to ourselves. When in some cases we need diversity, we need people that can challenge us, we need different skill sets.

You know, a lot of entrepreneurs will tell you, Mr Branson says, I just hired people that were smarter with more skills than I had and I've always done that and that makes total sense. It makes total sense.

[Andy Goram] (30:26 - 30:50)

It seems crazy to me, although that's not fair actually. That's me being a bit of a dick because I think early in my career, I would have been intimidated by hiring people who were better than me, I think in my early career, because I would have gone, well, I'm going to look stupid, but I was stupid because it took me a while to realise, actually, get brilliant people around you and the world is a much better place and you get to do some different things, right?

[Adrian Kelly] (30:50 - 31:05)

That's right and the same when it comes to positivity. We talked about, you know, expanding your world, your horizons, seeking challenge and that's about the people you surround yourself with as well, isn't it? You know, get that positivity into your life where you can, you know?

[Andy Goram] (31:05 - 32:06)

I think so. I love that optimism streak. I used to like working with people who were optimistic and that, to me, was a nice trait.

It wasn't overly happy-clappy, kind of like head in the sky, but it was just, well, what's the art of the possible? What could we do? Maybe we could try.

That's what I really, really enjoyed and I think it's also interesting to talk about, perhaps, the combination of the lack of confidence and competence. You know, it's not just a nine-box grid that sort of says they are competent or they're not or whatever. I think there is no quick fix to this question of someone's not motivated.

It's time with the individual, right, and understanding where we go. Okay, now one thing I've heard you talk about before is this thing called prevalence-induced concept change and the last time I heard you talk about it, I was like, oh, you dropped it in at the end of the sentence and I wasn't even really sure what it meant and I've kind of like wanted to catch up with you ever since and so, what on earth is it?

[Adrian Kelly] (32:06 - 34:21)

Well, let me explain it to you. So, this was something two Harvard professors noted when they were going through an airport, actually, many years ago. It was after 9-11 when security had changed and, you know, they were removing your nail clippers and it got a lot a lot more strict about what you conducted in your baggage, etc.

But what they discovered was, through the research, that search rates hadn't gone down, that the actual security people were looking for trouble, so to speak, and when they weren't finding it, they were actually maintaining the same level of searches. So, your compliance had gone up, people had stopped putting, let's say, nail clippers and offensive, you know, nail files, etc. in their bags, but searches hadn't.

And what they found was that where you have a lot of challenge in your life and then the challenge to start to disappear slowly, then smaller problems become bigger. I'll give you an example of this. Now, when I was a solicitor, my father was a salesman all his life, on the phone, selling things, cars, everything.

And I remember coming home from work one day from the office and he had planned to ring somebody, it was like an insurance person or something, and he hadn't done it all day, all day, he hadn't done it. He had built up this one phone call and when I came in, I said, okay, I'll just ring them and I just jumped on the phone and did it, because if our world starts to shrink, when we stop seeking challenge, well then, small, although at the moment maybe innocuous things to you and I, in 20-30 years could be huge things, like making a phone call. So, this is the way our brain works and this is why it's important to seek out challenge, to push ourselves, because there's a natural inclination towards shrinkage and they call it problem creep.

So, problems will creep and get bigger if we don't seek challenge and push ourselves to deal with things, which is really, if people don't take anything else in this conversation, it's worth reflecting on that, because there's all sorts of ways we can push ourselves and the old phrase, use it or lose it, it's like physically and mentally, if we don't stop pushing, challenge ourselves, seeking the next opportunity, the next goal, well then, unfortunately, smaller things can start to seem bigger and the world can become a more challenging place, which is kind of scary.

[Andy Goram] (34:21 - 35:05)

Yeah, I guess there are different personality traits that would probably lend themselves greater to that internal challenge and others of us who will struggle with that push. I mean, every time I go out for a run, I struggle with the push in my head of, it's quicker if you go left Andy and no one's watching and depending how I'm feeling, I'll carry on or I'll go left, whereas other people are far more driven to challenge themselves and push, push, push. You've picked up on that in your research, clearly, but are there any crutches that we could use to kind of like give ourselves a bit more confidence or to prompt us to push through and challenge that you've come across that are very, very helpful for people?

Building systems for success: making good habits easier

[Adrian Kelly] (35:06 - 35:41)

Well, there's certainly techniques. I mean, you mentioned running there and I'd refer our listeners to James Clear in Atomic Habits and how we can make short-term fun things like scrolling on your phone aimlessly or things that give you that dopamine hit that aren't very productive in the longer term, make those harder and make the longer purposeful things like actually getting out and going for a run easier. So how you might, just to give you two very quick examples.

One, get the phone out of the bedroom. This makes it harder to go and get it at night. Number two, and this was extreme, sleep in your running clothes.

So when you get out of bed, just put the runners on and go for a run.

[Andy Goram] (35:42 - 36:24)

I mean, you say that. Honestly, the days I've woken up going, it looks a bit dark, it looks a bit cold and I've got to go into another area of the house to go and get my running kit out of the tumble dryer or something from the day before. I swear to God, the days or nights I have said, right, tomorrow I'm going for a run and my kit is by the side of my bed, it's harder not to get up and put it on and go out.

And it's always the thought of doing it that is the worst part of it. Getting out, I might look like I need emergency help from an ambulance, but I'm out, right? I'm out and it's never as bad as I think it's going to be.

[Adrian Kelly] (36:24 - 36:57)

Absolutely. Here's the key. So what you've done there, you've put a system in place.

Your system is, you've got your clothes, whatever. There are various systems that help you. I mentioned crutches.

So the crutches, you might have a lack of discipline. You might feel tired, you find excuses not to do something. So instead, put a system in place that makes it easier.

So I'll give you a couple of examples. One, put the recycling bin close to where you parked the car. Take some rubbish out of your car and put it in the recycling bin as you go in the door every day.

Number two, you don't want to eat junk after seven o'clock. There's a thing called a kitchen safe, where they now put the junk food in and it's on a timer from seven to seven. You can't get out of it.

[Andy Goram] (36:57 - 37:01)

I love the idea of that. My kids would go mental, but I love the idea of that.

[Adrian Kelly] (37:01 - 38:02)

Number three, put a bowl of fruit on the table that's visible. Put the beer and the chocolate to the bottom of the fridge that's hard to get at, whatever it might be. So when you're highly motivated to do something, then put a system in place that's going to account for when that motivation or discipline dips.

I think that'll help a lot. Here's a little exercise you should all do. I'd encourage you to do.

Make a list of small things that are not helpful, that you do engage in on a daily basis. Make that list. Draw a line.

Beside it, write the long-term thing that you'd rather do that's associated with that. And then on the next page, you're going to write down how you're going to make the short-term thing harder to do, and beside it, how you're going to make that long-term beneficial thing easier to do. Do that for three to five things in your life and see how that changes.

Now what you're doing is you're systemizing. That's your crutch. You're putting a system in place basically for future you, which are like guardrails, to direct you to a more productive place.

[Andy Goram] (38:03 - 38:27)

Lots to think of for me to do there, my friend. I like that. I do actually like a system.

I would like to consider myself quite a free-spirited, creative person, but I have come to learn that whilst I enjoy those things, actually I've learned that systems are the way to develop. Even creativity, I think, is a system in a lot of ways, like a process.

[Adrian Kelly] (38:27 - 38:30)

Allowing that space, exactly. Allowing that space, particularly in the morning.

[Andy Goram] (38:31 - 39:19)

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I just want to think about, in all of the work that you're doing and you're working your way through your Master's, in my mind as well, whenever I speak to you, I get this feeling that I'm always redefining what success looks like after I talk to you. And I'm getting older.

I mean, you're getting older, not being rude, but with kind of like, you know, success, I guess, in relative terms. Just turned 52 weeks ago. Wow.

I am so far ahead of you, it's ridiculous. I wonder whether, if we were whispering in the ears of the younger, slightly darker-haired selves, when you would whisper in their ears about success and what to think about and how to maybe frame it in your head, what advice would you give your younger self today, Adrian?

Redefining happiness: hedonic vs eudaimonic success

[Adrian Kelly] (39:19 - 41:03)

Yeah, great question. I mean, there's lots you could advise your younger self on. One of the key things which I'd say to myself, and I think it's important to say on this show, is the actual definition of what happiness is.

And we've talked about success. Happiness is slightly different, I think, than success. And I deal with this in the book in great detail.

And there's two kind of main competing factors when it comes to defining happiness. And one is this hedonic happiness with hits, you know, so you go party and drink and whatever, and you know, you get this endorphin hit, you know. But it doesn't last.

And, you know, generally there's a low to follow afterwards. And then there's this other definition of happiness, which is eudaimonia, which is Aristotle's definition of happiness, which we've spoken of before, which is, it's not like, you know, laugh out loud happiness, but it's rather an underlying well-being. And how that's put in place, again, with a system, it's the pursuit of personal growth, Aristotle taught.

And if we can have a, you know, at least sketch out some sort of path or direction to increased well-being, well, we can have good days and bad days, but guess what? We've got this well-being to fall back on, this plan that we have in our minds. And hopefully my book helps sketch that out.

And while happiness isn't necessarily something that is sustainable, the phrase called happy-er-ness is sustainable. And happy-er-ness is that pursuit of that well-being. And that is sustainable.

Once we know what we're after, what that looks like for us, well, then we can all have that happy-er-ness. And again, that's not my phrase, happy-er-ness, but that's, it's one that really kind of rang home for me when I did hear that word. Words are clever, aren't they?

[Andy Goram] (41:05 - 41:43)

Words are clever, make you think a load of different things. And that we've had plenty to think about today. I always love sitting here listening and talking to you because there's just so many things that I take away.

But we've sort of got to the part of the show that I call Sticky Notes, Adrian. And I don't know how we're going to do it, but I'm going to ask you to try and leave behind three of your best pearls of wisdom when we think about redefining success and keeping it really purposeful, like you've said. I'd like them to be short enough to be able to fit onto three sticky notes.

So what would you leave behind in terms of your worlds of wisdom, my friend?

Sticky Notes: progress, consistency, and long-term thinking

[Adrian Kelly] (41:44 - 43:19)

Okay, well, first of all, I think, going back to that visual of the four tyres, where the rubber meets the road in terms of achieving progress in life. I'm going to add this. 99% of people will give up if they don't see progress.

But the key to achieving progress is to stick at the process in the longer term. You know, back to that phrase, I will overestimate what I do in a month and underestimate what I'll do in a year. So that's the first thing.

And we remember when we think of those wheels, those four things. So number one, do what matters. Do it to the best of your ability and do it consistently.

And the fourth wheel is reflect on what you're not doing well and fix it. And that's really powerful. And I think that's one and two, let's just say.

Three, I would say, if we want success, it's about happiness and the pursuit of that happiness. And I think it's about pursuing personal growth. And I think I've talked before with the parrot experiment, where I conducted this experiment with parrots to socialize them during COVID.

They brought in these tablets and the people that got the most callbacks, the parrots that got the most callbacks were the parrots that made the most calls on the iPads to other parrots. And this is back to the Harvard experiment, that longitudinal study over 70 years, that health measurement at 50 was about social health. Your social network, how healthy that was, was the determinant of how ultimately your wellbeing and your physical health was into your 80s and 90s.

[Andy Goram] (43:20 - 43:40)

I remember that parrot story. Didn't you tell me that the parrots who engaged in the most conversations were the healthiest out of that as well? That's right.

That's right. That's right. Fascinating stuff.

And what a way to end on parrots. Before I let you go, Adrian, I'm sure there's going to be people who want to check you out. Where can people find you?

Where can people get hold of the book? Where can we track you down?

[Adrian Kelly] (43:41 - 44:03)

Yeah, well, if you Google my name and success, you'll see it, or success complex. It's widely available on Amazon and other online outlets. My coaching website is actually askmore.ie, ask more of life, ask more of yourself is kind of the take there. And they'll find all my previous, well, most of my previous podcasts and articles and links to the audio book, etc. on that website.

[Andy Goram] (44:03 - 44:55)

Beautiful. Adrian, as always, absolute pleasure to spend any sort of time with you and get to chat. Thank you so much for coming on the show, my friend.

Andy, thanks. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Brilliant. You take care. Okay, everyone.

Well, that was Adrian Kelly. And if you'd like to find out a bit more about him, or any of the fantastic things we've talked about in today's episode, please go ahead and check out the show notes. So that concludes today's episode.

I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like, comment and subscribe. It really helps.

I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.

Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.