• Andy Goram

Episode 6 The Magic of Customer Care

Updated: Feb 9

This is a full transcript of Episode 6 of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast with Andy Goram and Mike Hurst, where they discuss what it takes to really deliver excellent customer service, customer care and profits whilst keeping high levels of employee engagement and empowerment.


00:00:10 Andy Goram

Hello and welcome to Sticky from the inside. The Employee Engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier competition-smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone.

This podcast is for all those who believe that’s something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that. Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses. The sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work, and where more customers stay with you, and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.

00:01:10 Andy Goram

OK, here we are again for another episode of my sticky from the Inside podcast and today we are going to roll up our sleeves and start to look at what it really takes to affect culture change and the roles that employee engagement and the connection to the customer really play in that.

Now in my mind, employee engagement and customer experience are two happy bedfellows, and when they're both operating at their best - that's when the magic happens. But whilst talking about it is fun and goodness only knows, I love to talk about it, making it happen is a little harder, which is why I'm delighted to be joined today by Mike Hurst. Now Mike is, I guess, a Change Director, and I've probably completely underplayed what his role really is, but he's one of those guys working with Adrian Moorhouse at that world-renowned, performance improvement business Lane4. Now with over 30 years; experience across retail and now helping his customers create what I would think are winning organisations, and become positive and productive places to work, he really knows what it takes to build, maintain and change culture, because he's tackled it many, many times before. And he's also the Co-host of a successful “For You” YouTube channel. Which is in complete alignment with who the guy is that I know, and he's been spreading really positive messages of hope during the period of the pandemic. So, a long intro but well worth it. How are you doing Mike? Nice to see you mate.

00:02:41 Mike Hurst

Alright, thank you very much Andy, thanks for the big build-up.

I'll try and I'll try and live up to it, but you are definitely talking about my favorite subject really, which is customers and you'll have to keep me to time, because I could probably obsess about them for the next three or four hours. If you let me go on a roll.

So, I'll look for you to manage me, but I'm very grateful for you asking me to come and talk about customers, because I really am obsessed by them.

00:03:10 Andy Goram

No, I know, I know! We're in dangerous territory, buddy because if I didn't have a timer by me, we could just be going off for days, which would be great for us, but maybe not for the listeners, I don't know.

Yeah, I've probably completely underplayed that role title of yours at Lane4. Do you want to just give us a sort of highlight of what it is that you're really doing within that organisation?

00:03:30 Mike Hurst

Well, I'm a partner at Lane4 and it was you know, thanks for mentioning Lane 4, I mean it's a brilliant company to work for and we really do care about making a difference to people and businesses and, you know, I think that links to your whole subject of interest to be perfectly Frank, is that. If we can make enough of a difference to people in a way that you know they really appreciate and they appreciate their companies investing in them, and clearly they're going to do their very, very best to support that company who employs them.

00:04:05 Andy Goram

100% mate.

00:04:06 Mike Hurst

Yeah, you know. And that's what we do. We try and make a difference to businesses, but to people's working lives, we think they're inextricably linked. And I'm a partner there. I have been there 13 years. I sometimes work with a client in the room. I try and make sure they get a great customer experience and they want to carry on working with us. And probably, not uniquely, but certainly in a minority, what I think I bring to the consulting world in terms of development is a real focus on the customer and it making a difference to the customer at an individual and organizational level. And you know a real desire for them to want to carry on working with us.

00:04:54 Andy Goram

Well, I think that's a great topic for us to talk about today, mate, so I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. Now I'm a lucky old thing 'cause I've had the good fortune to work with you, both from a client perspective, but also I've peeked behind the curtain as contributor, associate, consultant whatever you want to call it, so, I know how passionate you are about this topic that we're going to look at today, and especially this link between engaged employees and the customer. But, there's always a stimulus in someone's life as to why this is a hot topic, why it's a passionate thing for you. So, tell us today where did this all start for you then?

00:05:33 Mike Hurst

Yeah, it started when I was a young lad I didn't know what I wanted to be. All I knew is I didn't want to do the things that my Mum wanted me to do and therefore you know, and therefore I was probably a bit of a disappointment at that time for her. I applied for a load of jobs rather than go to University and one of them that just seemed to take my fancy was to become a YTS, so I'm sure most people listening probably don't even remember that. But it was Youth Training Scheme.

00:06:06 Andy Goram

I remember.

00:06:07 Mike Hurst

It was on £17.50 a week I think, if I remember rightly, and I started working in Dixons, in Dixon’s High Street in Wrexham and that was my grounding into the world of customer experience, really.

00:06:23 Andy Goram

And so, what was your experience like working for Dixons, 'cause it's clearly had an influence on the way you think about customers and businesses and engagement and how that all aligns.

00:06:34 Mike Hurst

Yeah, first of all, I'd have to say as a business, Dixons is a fantastic business. I owe Lord Kalms an awful lot for what it's done for my career, my family, etc. And the things I learned, and I was very privileged, I spent small amounts of time as my career progressed with him. The biggest learning was when I started and it was quite a bit of a shock in that I'm there, having a bit of an induction that was kind of learn as you go. I was lucky to have, you know a couple of good people there who acted as mentors and Ron in particular I would mention that I'll never forget.

But what I noticed in that very first week is that when the management weren't around and a customer walked in, and for those of you who remembered Dixons as a High Street entity, you'll remember they had these really, bright, red carrier bags.

00:07:23 Andy Goram

Yes, I remember those. Yeah, yeah defo.

00:07:25 Mike Hurst

You see them, you could see the miles off, right? You could see them miles down the street, anyway. When somebody walked back in with one of these Dixons red carrier bags, all of a sudden everybody disappeared. And I'm left standing there with a customer walking in with a red carrier bag, sometimes walking very pleasantly, sometimes being very courteous and polite, sometimes being very angry and aggressive, and sometimes it's like it's my fault that whatever it is - that I only just started there that week - it's my fault, whatever it is that they're bringing in, in that bag isn't working or isn't what they wanted. And, you know, I immediately realised that all of these people walking in with bags, they weren't what my colleagues looked forward to, and they weren't what my colleagues clearly thought their job was, which you know, my colleagues, I think, we're more interested perhaps in selling and commission.

00:08:26 Andy Goram

I was going to say yeah, the old Commission model behind that, yeah?

00:08:29 Mike Hurst

And saw these people as a waste of time, or angry people, etc and I suddenly realised that unless you ran for it, you were the person who would end up looking after all of these customers coming in. But once you did it once, or twice or not many times at all, you suddenly realise that more often than not, the customer had a real grievance and had every right to be upset, disappointed, frustrated, whatever the word and you put yourself in their shoes and you realize that if that was mine, if that happened to me, I wouldn't be happy and I'd be bringing it back, and the last thing I would want is somebody running away from me as I walk in, as they're not, customers can see it.

00:09:11 Mike Hurst

So I suddenly realized that my best way to look after customers who were coming in, was to walk towards them in a very open and embracing way. And immediately that tended to make more people less angry and less frustrated just by showing that I wanted to go and help them. And then to really learn to listen, and to really understand. And you know, in those days there were some real policies, and the policies were written down on these little bits of paper and lots of people, not just in Dixons, stuck behind these policies and the policies were very profit-focused, as opposed to customer-focused really and what I realised is you just needed to listen to the customer. You have to think, what would I expect? What would be right for me? And you had to give them choices and it wouldn't always be what they wanted. You know, sometimes people were, you know this “customer is always right”, that's not true. Some customers can be unreasonable. Some customers can try it on. Some customers can ask for almost the impossible and some customers, you know, if you only had those sort of customers, you wouldn't last long in business, because, if you always gave them what they want you would have run out of money as a company. So, I realized what you had to do is empathise, and you have to listen to them. Show you understood and that you had empathy, and then give them choices, even when it couldn't be the choices that they wanted.

00:10:47 Andy Goram

And this is you working this stuff out for yourself, Mike, right?

00:10:49 Mike Hurst

Yeah, I really was. I was working this out for myself. Nobody really showed me that. That is the truth, I just, I just realised this works. This works and you know, all of a sudden, my career started to progress because, whilst I’d definitely say I wasn't the best salesman, and that would still be true today. In fact, I have a little bit of a tingle of the words “sales”, 'cause I like to consider myself somebody who likes to sell. I like to think about, I really like to look after customers. What I started to notice is the customers who you looked after when they had a problem really appreciated it. Most of them. Yeah? And all of a sudden, you know just a few weeks, a few months down the line, they’d come back to you at Christmas and they'd ask for you by name and they want to buy their Christmas presents from you.

00:11:41 Andy Goram

They’re seeking you out, right?

00:11:43 Mike Hurst

Yeah, absolutely! And it wasn't 'cause you had a badge, or you wrote your name on a bit of paper or till slip. It was because they remembered you looked after them.

00:11:53 Andy Goram

You built a connection.

00:11:54 Mike Hurst

Yeah definitely. And what that did, is it enabled my sales to be good enough to get me to be considered for management, you know. And I went as deputy manager to stores that were 40-50 miles away and there were there were customers. I mean, you know, dear old, a lady called Mrs. King unfortunately passed away about 15 years ago, but she would follow me from Wrexham to Oswestry, to Rhyll and all these other places in North Wales just to spend £40 on a Kettle, or £50 on a radio, or whatever because she really valued how I looked after her when she had a problem with her Satellite.

00:12:36 Andy Goram

And you still know that 15 years ago she passed away. I mean that itself is incredible, right?

00:12:43 Mike Hurst

Yeah, well, I I just think people customers are people. You know this, you're brilliant at it yourself, Andy.

00:12:53 Mike Hurst

There was there was a piece of there was a piece of research by a chap called Cialdini. I don’t know if you’ve heard it before?.

00:12:59 Andy Goram

No, come on, I've not heard this one.

00:13:02 Mike Hurst

Yeah. This research. Or so the story goes. I like stories. He spoke to a top salesperson in a top, in a big car dealership in the States, OK? And he said, you know, as part of my research, I'm really interested in what makes you so good at selling. How do you sell so much? And I was interested if you could share some top tips. And the car salesman says, “Well, that's quite easy. I make the customers like me.” And Cialdini says, “OK, so that sounds easy, that's great, but what do you do to make them like you?” He says, “That's even easier. I like them first.”

00:13:39 Andy Goram

Nice. Like that.

00:13:41 Mike Hurst

And that's really stayed with me, all of my all of my career, is that if you like a customer, if you are there in service of them, they you know they pay the money, right? And sometimes they can be unreasonable, but, if you totally believe you are there to service them 'cause they're spending their money, then you're probably going to value them and value them as people and you're going to do your very, very best to look after them.

00:14:14 Andy Goram

I think that's brilliant. I love that story and it reminds me of a book, that's probably had a lot of people dismiss it because of its title. But, “How to win friends and influence people” book from years ago, was pretty much all about, get people to like you by listening to their story, not telling yours. Listen, listen, listen. Ask them questions and when you leave them, they'll think, “What a lovely person that guy was.” Because, all they've done is tell their story, and people like to tell their story, right? So, I guess that's really interesting.

00:14:52 Mike Hurst

Definitely and then, later on in my career, I was fortunate enough to work for a wonderful lady called Elaine. And I don't know whether she invented this, or whether she got it from somewhere else, but it really worked for me and what she said to me was very clearly, she said, “The problem we have here”, in the business that we worked for at the time, is, “people treat customers like wallets. You know they treat them like purses. They don't treat them as people. They don't treat them as individuals.” And actually that stems from “We don't treat our people as customers of ours, as a business.” And she came up with this line and she said, “If we really can treat our people like customers, there's half a chance they might treat our customers like people.”

00:15:45 Andy Goram

Beautiful. What a lovely saying.

00:15:48 Mike Hurst

Yeah, I just thought that you know again the link to, if you want your people to value the customer, you have to show that you value the customer, but you have to show you value them. Because, ultimately, customers, colleagues, we’re all people and it's about valuing people. And if you really show that through your actions and your behaviors towards them, guess how, hopefully they will behave then with the customer that walks in. So, you know, I really, I really like that. And then I remember, and this actually comes from Lord Kalms. One day, he took me to one side, and he talked to me about breaking a rule every day.

00:16:28 Andy Goram

Oh! OK.

00:16:29 Mike Hurst

And again, you could take that in number of ways. You could think that was good. You could think that was bad. You could think that could lead to chaos. But I found it really empowering. Because, what he wanted you to do was (think), “Is it going to help the customer? Is it going to help the company in the decision that you make?” And as long as you can genuinely say, “yes” to those questions, don't follow some bureaucratic rule or policy that says that you shouldn't do the right thing. So, early in those days as well, I started to bend rules and push boundaries.

00:17:12 Andy Goram

And that's no surprise to hear that, Mike.

00:17:14 Mike Hurst

And do what I could in the interest of the customer and I'm sure if you spoke to any of my colleagues today,they’d say, “He’s still the same now.”

00:17:21 Andy Goram

I know that to be true my friend.

00:17:24 Mike Hurst

So, you know, again if it's genuinely in the interest of the customer. If it’s genuinely in the interest of the company that's paying you money, then why wouldn't you bend the rules?

00:17:36 Andy Goram

So, with all that kind of formative background and the work that you're doing today with lots of different businesses, how do you start to get employees closer to the customer? And then by doing that and listening to what you're saying, what do you think that ultimate effect on customer loyalty is having?

00:17:58 Mike Hurst

Yes, it's a good question and I'm sure there are lots of answers to that question. Then I'm sure a lot of other people would have equally as good answers and different answers than I have. But I think that you know, it starts with, in my opinion, the word “care” is massive in this, right? The word “care” is massive, right? Do I truly care about customers? Because we hear the word role modeling a lot. Yeah?

00:18:27 Andy Goram

Yeah, I mean, I use it a lot but, yeah, go on.

00:18:31 Mike Hurst

But, interestingly again, just my interpretation of that word “role-modeling.” Role-modeling, for me suggests a conscious act. I'm not saying it is, but for me, it suggests a conscious act. But, if you really, really care about customers. You do behave like you really care about customers. To the level I'm talking about, you walk into one of your stores as an area manager and you see customers queuing and that is not acceptable, right? So, you intervene and you try and help there and then until that customers is going to be happy. Then you have a conversation about how do we avoid this happening again in the future? Now I'm imagining, and again and I'm not saying I always did it in the right way, Andy, but I'm imagining even today, people would say “If I upset one of our customers. If I do something really bad for one of our customers, Mike will go mad.” I honestly believe, I think people would think that.

And obviously as I got older, hopefully I've got better at helping coach people today think about customers in different ways and so they don't mess up, but essentially the truth is I would be really frustrated and angry if we were letting our customers down through lack of care.

00:19:44 Andy Goram

Understandably.

00:19:48 Mike Hurst

So, there's something about real customer care being at the heart of it. And then there's something about controlling the controllables. Because there will be customers, like I say who sometimes want things that are unreasonable, but you can control giving them choices. You can control listening to them. You can control. I always used to remember going into stores years ago and I remember one guy in particular, Peter, his name was. I’d say “Why is our performance so poor? Why are our numbers so near the bottom of the table? What what's happening?” and he'd say, “Oh! We've been quiet.” And I’d say, “Well, if we've been quiet, why is that customer over there not getting served? If we been quiet, why are the TV's in the window dirty? And if we've been quiet, why is that phone been ringing endlessly since me and you've been here?”

And I wasn't trying to be Attila the Hun, or, you know, I wasn't trying to role model a tyrant, what I was trying to do, is get across, when you can say that our efforts are completely in the interest of the customer 'cause we cared about and we did everything we can, If they’re still not coming in; if it’s still “We're quiet”, then let's talk about that. But let's not talk about it until we're doing everything we can. And my experience, honestly, Andy, I went into so many underperforming, allegedly, stores and when I went into those stores as a new manager, I was always told that they require. I was always told that that was the reason why they were underperforming and it wasn't. It was because we lacked customer care. We didn't come in, to be there, to do an amazing job by the customer. Once we start to have the mindset that we are there to do an amazing job by the customer, that means doing everything within our control. It didn't take long, it really didn't take long to turn performance around.

And if you, if you're doing it well enough, regularly enough and talking about it enough, you actually become surplus to requirements as the leader and the manager, because people work it out. They learn for themselves. They work it out for themselves. They see how it's going to help their career and feel it's the right thing to do anyway. That would be my experiences. There's a load of amazing people and I see it in Lane4, today. There's some really, really, really talented people. I would say far more talented than I am. Probably, going to have more success than I've ever had, because you can see, as well as all of their many wonderful talents, they have this customer care, this customer focus and they realize that that is why they’re there.

00:22:33 Mike Hurst

There was a brilliant chap. His name is Tom and he said to me, “Mike, managers get the teams they deserve.” Yeah? That was another big learning for me. What I mean is, if you really cared about customers, your behaviors to customers and to them are because you really care about customers. It won't take long before they also want to care about customers and it becomes part of their DNA.

00:23:01 Andy Goram

It just becomes part of that wider team piece. I mean you talk about mindset. It sounds like there's a sort of whether they’re written or espoused values, there's a driver internally that's kind of driven your focus, driven your demeanor around these sort of things, which is infectious and rubs off on your employees. But this thing about mindset and empowerment? Because you talk about choices for customers, but there's a piece in here about liberating decision-making in employees that can really help drive engagement as well. How do you use that in your strategies and tactics to help businesses improve their customer focus, but at the same time drive better employee engagement?

00:23:50 Mike Hurst

Yeah, I mean. Do you know it's really? I'm going to speak out loud now and I hope this is going to make sense. It's a really interesting subject, so I work with some incredible people and I work with some incredible companies as well today, and sometimes there are companies and people that I know that will focus on engagement. It’s almost they’re #1 driver. And I don't think there's a wrong or right to a debate here. I just think there are different views and opinions and surely they all have their pros and the cons. So, there are people in companies I know who focus on the customer. There are people I know who focus on the colleague first. I guess the honest truth for me is, I focus on the customer and profit, first. Because I have this mental image that if we're not successful as a company, it doesn't matter how wonderful this place is, it won't exist, yeah?

So, for me, giving the customers what they want in a way that is profitable, is the very starting point. Now, if you do that in a way, then that you engage people with that vision, and you have talented people who have that customer care and you give them license and freedom to make their choices on how they give that fantastic experience, not only does it deliver you the customer experience and therefore the performance that goes along with that, but actually they love being empowered. They love being able to make those decisions. They love the development. Now, it's really important you don't jump on them the minute they make a mistake, or they learn something, because, you know I was lucky. I made some really bad mistakes and the legend and the myths in Dixons where you make mistakes like that, you're out the door. You're gonna get fired! And, you know some people would say they're not legends, and if that's how it was, but that was never my experience. My experience was as long as you learn, as long as you're doing it for the right reasons, it was a brilliant learning ground, and I guess again I've taken that with me.

Nobody is ever going to get everything right. If you're going to explore. If you're going to innovate. If you're going to be an entrepreneur that's trying to find ways that are best for the customer, you're going to make the odd mistake. So, empowerment, understanding, empathy. All the things that you want to give to your customer, you want to give to your colleagues.

00:26:21 Andy Goram

Yeah. God. Absolutely, mate.

00:26:24 Mike Hurst

I think the one thing to bear in mind is being understanding. Being empathetic. Helping them learn, being forgiving of mistakes. All of that I truly believe is important. There is a fine line, and again another great leader that I work with and I'm sure you've heard other people say this Andy, but there's a fine line between, “There's also what you tolerate, you get.”

00:26:47 Andy Goram

OK, yeah, that walk-on-by stuff. Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:49 Mike Hurst

So, you know I would walk into stores. I would work with teams where it is clear that there are people who haven't got that customer-focused mindset. Who think they're there to do other things, rather than do a great job that is there for the customer. And I think one of the things in businesses too often, that rot is allowed to settle. Because, engaging your people does not mean not taking tough decisions. At Lane4 we talk about “ruthlessly caring”. It's about how do you be, ruthlessly caring?

You know you do everything you can to help people have the right mindset. You help them have the right tools, the right freedom to make decisions, to learn, to make mistakes. And that's when really, really talented people fulfill their potential and they like customers at the same time.

00:27:44 Andy Goram

They can come and we can come from anywhere, Mike, can't they? They can come from anywhere. I am minded to recall the tale we both know, because it was a project that we worked on with Buzz Bingo. And this framework that we built around empowerment and care, and customer focus. I will remember this day for the rest of my life and I've probably bored too many people with this story.

00:28:09 Mike Hurst

You’re speaking about Colleen, aren’t you?

00:28:10 Andy Goram

I am absolutely talking about Colleen in Peterborough, mate. You know, we were in there, we’re about to relaunch this brand. We are dragging The Board round a Bingo Club and of course, instead of all the lovely shiny stuff that we've put in the club, they want to go back of house. So, you take them back off house and you go down the corridor and Colleen is stood in the corridor. And Colleen is just, I say just, she is a regular member of staff, right? She's a team colleague. And The Board pounce on her, and she's in front of our poster that's outlining the plans for the business going forward. And they ask her, “What's going on in this business?” And as a member of the Exec Board, I have this moment. I have my heart in my mouth going. Oh, goodness, what are we going to get? What are we going to get here? And Colleen preceded to tell the story of past, present and future for that business. What had happened in the past, what they were going to do about it in the future. Who was taking responsibility for what. Who was going to feedback and review and amend. And the way that she could meld all this with business figures and customer focus and really name individuals who were doing specific things and talk about customers as individuals. I remember standing there just, close to tears if I'm honest, because it was amazing to see that and all the work that we've done on combining empathy, customer focus and a framework helped really deliver that, and that was a very engaged individual and a very engaged team as a result.

00:29:43 Mike Hurst

And I think there would have been many of those. You know, Andy and I know through the evaluation we did. And again, you know, I didn't want to specifically talk about that. The fact of the matter is, there have been several ideas that have either made or saved money for the company or improved the customer experience, that then got shared across the state. And that's because when you engage, you know 5000 brains, you're more likely to get some fantastic ideas than you are if you've got 10 people sitting in a, you know a meeting room in head office, who make all the decisions. Yeah, and I think that's when you know that you've got success, is when everybody is there for the same reason, everybody feels an equal responsibility. Everybody feels an equal

sense of worth and value and desire and commitment and you know, that's unstoppable. When you've got that it really is...

00:30:38 Andy Goram

It's proper magic, mate. It really is?

00:30:40 Mike Hurst

It is, definitely, and you know it's so important that people understand that that whole carry-on bag syndrome. I was working with a... Because I don't think this is exclusive to retail work or leisure. I was working with the one of the UK's major car manufacturing companies. I did quite a lot of work with them for a number of years. Now, I wasn't surprised to find that their own customer research said that if one of their vehicles went wrong 1.7 times, that was likely to drive the most loyalty. Loyalty in terms of renewing for the same made manufacturers vehicle.

00:31:27 Andy Goram

Yeah, yeah.

00:31:28 Mike Hurst

That's really, really robust data, right. Now of course, it depends on what that 1.7 looks like, but these moments are the moments where you can either lose customers for life, or win customers for life. Yeah? And if you've got people realising that. Realising the customer experience is what drives loyalty, is what drives profitability and what enables that are people, who care and they feel empowered to do what's right. Then, for me, that's where loyalty is generated. And I know that if you were to say, you know, I have been Lane4 now for 13 years, and I know if you were to say to many of my customers, and some of them absolutely still working with us and I started working with 13 years ago. They would say the one thing which stand out about Mike is, that he cares.

00:32:20 Andy Goram

I know that to be true mate. Halleluiah! To all of that. You know what I have just glanced down at my timer for this podcast, and as predicted, we're off and running and throwing timing out the window. So, look, I think this is a... It's too short to stop it, but I have to sort of like try and summarize this stuff. So, I've got to the point in the podcast, Mike, where I'm going to ask you to leave us with your top three tips, right? For people to take back to the ranch and begin to start improving things like engagement or empathy or focus on the customer. And this is the section that I call sticky notes. And literally, if you were to leave three sticky notes behind for our listeners, what would they be?

00:33:03 Mike Hurst

So, the first one, I guess it's very clear for retail and leisure. I actually think it's for a lot of other businesses as well. I think the starting point is to ask, to look in the mirror and say do I really care, about the experience I'm giving to the people who spend money with me? Yep? Because if you care, all the things you want your team.

And the people around you to do, just ooze from you.

00:33:30 Andy Goram

Yeah.

00:33:32 Mike Hurst

The second one is. Notice that every customer problem is an opportunity to lose a customer for life, or to win a customer for life. Every customer. it really is. And the third one, is if you have great people around you, who have that similar belief set and are there to do a great job by the customers, empower them to make decisions, let them be accountable. And you'll be amazed. Like those stories you were telling, and you'll be amazed what the outcome might be.

00:34:04 Andy Goram

Yeah brilliant! Thanks mate. That's some good things to think through there. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us today. It's always a great pleasure to speak to you and I prefer it when there isn't a time limit on it, if I'm if I'm honest. Look, my takeout of our conversation today is that employee engagement and customer experience are, as you said, at the start, inextricably linked and making sure we all take time to put on our customer shoes is incredibly important. But also, that finding those ways that you've talked about today, or frameworks that allow localized empowerment of customer decisions can be a massive factor in driving employee engagement, which is ultimately going to deliver a much better customer experience. Fabulous stuff mate. Thank you so much for your time today and I hope to see you very, very soon. Take it easy my friend.

00:35:01 Mike Hurst

Thank you. Cheers! Bye!

00:35:03 Andy Goram

Right, if you'd like to find out more about Mike and some of the things we've spoken about today, you can find some useful links in the show notes.

00:35:17 Andy Goram

So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something. Maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.If you have, please like comment and subscribe, it really helps. I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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