Leadership Influence: Finding Your Voice Without Losing Yourself

Andy Goram (left) and Corinne Gavlinski (right) discuss the topic of Leadership Influence

Many of us don't struggle to find our voice. We just struggle to use it effectively.

We've all done it. The meeting ends, people begin gathering their things, and only then do we think of exactly what we should have said. It's frustrating because, more often than not, we weren't short of ideas. We simply didn't voice them.

Over the years, I've seen this pattern time and again. People leave meetings convinced they should have contributed, but held back because something got in the way. Sometimes it's a lack of confidence. Sometimes it's imposter syndrome. Sometimes it's organisational politics or a fear of being judged. Sometimes it's simply the feeling that it isn't their place to speak.

It's tempting to see this as a confidence problem. I'm not sure it is.

Confidence might help you speak. It doesn't necessarily help you influence. That distinction came into sharp focus during my recent conversation with executive coach and leadership advisor Corrine Gavlinski. Corrine spends her time helping senior leaders navigate complex organisations, difficult relationships and high-stakes decisions. What struck me wasn't another call for leaders to be braver or louder. Instead, she offered a much more useful way of thinking about influence. Leadership influence doesn't begin when you speak. It begins long before anyone hears your voice.

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📄 Prefer to read instead? The full transcript is available after this blog.

We don't have a confidence problem. We have an influence problem.

Advice often tells us to speak up. Challenge upwards. Have courageous conversations. Speak truth to power. It's all well-intentioned, but it assumes that finding the confidence to speak is the biggest hurdle. I'm increasingly convinced it isn't.

A lot of us already feel we have something worthwhile to contribute. What we struggle with is deciding how to contribute in a way that creates the outcome we're hoping for. That's a very different challenge. Corrine illustrated this through one of the defining moments of her own career. In a high-pressure meeting, she spoke up passionately about an issue she cared deeply about. Afterwards, someone challenged her directly.

"What the H was that?"

She still believed her point had been right. What hadn't been right was the way she'd tried to influence the conversation. Emotion had overtaken intention. That experience changed the way she thinks about leadership. Not because she decided leaders should stay quiet in the moment. Quite the opposite. She realised that influence is something you prepare for long before the conversation starts.

Great conversations begin before the meeting does

One of the simplest ideas from our conversation was also one of the most powerful. Before deciding what you're going to say, decide what you're trying to achieve. It's surprising how rarely we do that, focus on the outcomes we want.

We spend time preparing arguments, presentations all backed up with data, yet probably far less time preparing ourselves. What impact do I want to have? What do I want this person to understand? How do I want this conversation to feel when it's over? Those questions completely change how we show up. Instead of concentrating on proving we're right, we begin thinking about creating understanding. That shift matters because influence isn't measured by how much airtime you get. It's measured by what changes because of what you said.

Silence is one of leadership's most expensive misunderstandings

One of the biggest mistakes organisations make is assuming silence means agreement. It doesn't. Often silence means uncertainty. Sometimes it means politics. Sometimes it means someone is still working out whether it's safe to contribute. Sometimes it means compliance as opposed to engagement. Sometimes it means we don't yet have the confidence to challenge someone more senior. And that can mean the best idea in the room may never get spoken. That's an expensive misunderstanding.

When capable people repeatedly decide it's safer to stay quiet, organisations don't just lose individual ideas, they lose diversity of thinking, constructive challenge and opportunities to make better decisions. That's why creating environments where people feel able to contribute isn't simply about psychological safety. It's about laying the groundwork for better organisational performance.

Curiosity is a leadership skill we don't teach enough

Another idea Corrine returned to repeatedly was that of curiosity.Not as a personality trait, but as a leadership discipline. As leaders we can become more direct as we become more experienced. Decisiveness is rewarded, speed is rewarded and certainty often looks like confidence. But directness without curiosity can quickly become certainty without understanding.

Corrine described great leadership as balancing directness with curiosity. I love that idea. Curious leaders don't avoid difficult conversations, they simply enter them differently. Instead of asking, "How do I convince this person?" They ask, "What am I missing from their perspective?" That subtle shift in mindset often changes the quality of the conversation and the eventual outcome. Influence grows when people feel heard, listened to and understood before they are asked to change.

Perhaps we've misunderstood vulnerability

Vulnerability has become one of the most discussed and possibly divisive ideas in leadership. I happen to think it's also one of its most misunderstood. Too often it's presented as emotional openness. I mean, that's certainly one expression of vulnerability, but I don't think it's the one most of us struggle with when it comes to leading.

During our conversation, I offered Corrine a much more practical perspective. Sometimes vulnerability simply sounds like this.

"I got that wrong."

"I've changed my mind."

"Can we start again?"

"I need some help."

None of those statements diminish anyone's ability to lead effectively. If anything, they strengthen it because they demonstrate self-awareness, humility and a willingness to learn.

Corrine also spoke about communicating intention before giving difficult feedback. Rather than launching straight into criticism, she explains why the conversation matters and what she hopes the other person will gain from it. It's a small shift, but an important one. When people understand your intention, they're much more likely to hear your message.

Leadership identity matters more than leadership style

Towards the end of our conversation, Corrine introduced the four leadership zones she uses with clients: Impact, Chaos, Erosion and Disengagement. What interested me wasn't the framework itself. It was the question underneath it. What kind of leader do you want to be? Now I don't think anyone sets out saying "I want to be a chaotic leader", but it's a question we probably don't ask often enough.

Leadership development tends to focus on capability. How to coach. How to influence. How to communicate. All important things, no doubt. But capability without identity becomes inconsistent. When pressure increases, we fall back on habit rather than intention. Those leaders who create lasting influence are usually the ones who've thought carefully about who they want to be before deciding what they want to do, and ask themselves if their actions are matching up to that.

Nobody should have to think alone

One theme quietly connected almost every part of our conversation. None of us sees ourselves completely clearly. Corrine spoke openly about wishing she'd had someone outside her organisation to challenge her thinking before that pivotal meeting. I understand exactly why.

Some of the biggest shifts in my own thinking have come through conversations with people who weren't caught up in the politics of my organisation. People willing to ask awkward questions, challenge assumptions and point out blind spots I couldn't see for myself. Whether you call that person a mentor, coach, trusted colleague or thinking partner doesn't really matter. What matters is having someone who helps you think more clearly before the conversation that matters most. In my experience counsel from outside an organisation can give you some vital perspective to think more clearly about what is happening. And better thinking almost always leads to better influence.

Leadership influence begins long before anyone hears your voice

If this conversation reinforced one idea for me, it's this. Most people don't remain silent because they have nothing worthwhile to contribute. They remain silent because something gets between the idea and the moment they need to express it. As I said at the beginning of this blog, sometimes that's confidence. Sometimes it's organisational culture. Sometimes it's fear. Sometimes it's simply not knowing how our words will land. Those barriers are real, but telling people to "be more confident" rarely removes them.

Helping people become more intentional just might though. Perhaps that's why I don't think the real challenge is finding your voice. The challenge is learning how to use it intentionally.

To think before we speak. To be curious before we've made up our minds. To prepare before we try to persuade. To care as much about the impact we're trying to create as the words we're about to use. Because leadership influence doesn't begin when you start talking.

It begins much earlier, in the thinking you do before anyone else hears your voice.

Full Podcast Episode Transcript

[Andy Goram] (0:11 - 3:32)

Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the podcast that explores how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help you turn the lights on behind the eyes of your people, light the fires within them and help more of us lead successful, fulfilling work lives. This podcast is for anyone who believes that's worth going after and is curious about what really drives people, culture and performance.

Each episode we dive into the ideas and conversations that help create what I call stickier businesses, places where people thrive and love to work and where customers stay, recommend you and love what you do and why you do it. So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.

Why do capable people stay silent?

Okay then, have you ever walked out of a meeting replaying the conversation over and over in your head thinking, why didn't I just say it?

Not because you didn't have an opinion, not because you didn't know the answer, but because for some reason in that moment something stopped you. Perhaps it was fear, perhaps there was politics at play, perhaps you were worried about how your challenge or interjection could be received. Or maybe you simply convinced yourself that it just wasn't worth the risk.

Whatever the reason, most of us have experienced that moment where silence somehow feels safer than speaking up. Now, my guest today has spent years helping leaders understand exactly why that happens. Corinne Gavlinski is the founder and CEO of The GAV Group and they work with senior leaders and executive teams to help them influence more effectively, navigate complex relationships and create the conditions where better conversations can happen.

And here's why I wanted Corinne on the show today. Corinne doesn't just believe that this is simply about managing up effectively. She believes it's about something much deeper, courage, understanding why you want to influence in the first place, knowing when to challenge, knowing how to challenge and perhaps most importantly, having the confidence to find your voice in those situations without losing yourself in the process.

So today I want to try and explore why so many capable people still often stay quiet, why asking for help can still feel really uncomfortable for many of us, especially senior executives. And I really want to look at vulnerability. Is it being perceived differently now?

Are we changing our mind about how vulnerability shows up in leadership and does that in any way influence other things? And somewhere along the way, I'm hoping that Corinne is going to share a story with you that she shared with me about one meeting she'll never forget that changed the way that she thinks about leadership forever. So here we go.

Corinne, welcome to the show.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (3:33 - 3:36)

Thank you so much, Andy. It's a delight to be here.

[Andy Goram] (3:36 - 3:48)

It's great, great to see you. For me personally, this feels like a conversation long time coming. We spoke a long, long time ago about recording something together and we're finally doing it, which is wonderful.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (3:48 - 3:48)

We're here.

Meet Corinne Gavlinski

[Andy Goram] (3:49 - 4:05)

Before we start getting into this lovely topic of leadership and challenging up and maybe the cost of staying silent in those situations, you do me a little favour, Corinne. Could you introduce yourself to the audience, tell us a little bit about you and where your focus is today?

[Corinne Gavlinski] (4:05 - 6:20)

Absolutely. You know, I had the very good fortune, Andy, to start my career in organizations that really invested in young leadership talent. That doesn't happen so much anymore these days, so I sound like a dinosaur when I say it, but that's the truth. I was put through paces.

I was placed in departments where other leaders were modelling behaviour for me. I was rapidly provided feedback in my young career about what I was doing right and what I wasn't doing so right. And I had a real positive grooming, if you will, as a young leader.

And I have to be quite honest, I didn't really see it for the benefit it truly was at the time. I never really appreciated it enough. But now, 20-some-odd years later, I look back and think, gosh, what a tremendous upbringing I had in my career.

That led to a succession of pivots in my life after a couple of identity jolts, one of which was, you know, not my choice and one of which was my choice. So I moved from financial services into health care. I worked for startups and large publicly traded companies.

I found that I was very good with clients, so I typically had very client-facing roles and ultimately led sales and account management teams for most of my career. And so at some point, I made yet a third pivot and decided to get out of this crazy corporate world. And today, I help executives solve big problems.

I work with executives at the senior level who are really struggling with a couple things, either politics in the workplace that are hindering their ability to have bigger impact or they're exhausted by whatever's happening in their organization. And usually that has something to do with not just the pace, but more often I find it has to do with how decisions are made in the organization. So we work on that.

[Andy Goram] (6:20 - 6:35)

Okay. Now I can't get this out of my head. Firstly, let's just chop back.

I do love it when guests use little phrases that make me think about, I love the whole thing, identity jolts. That's great. I like that.

I'm gonna keep that if I may.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (6:35 - 6:38)

Yes, you may. Yes, you may.

[Andy Goram] (6:38 - 6:54)

The second thing is, when we first spoke about talking together, you told me a story, like a pivotal moment for you in your career that made you reconsider, I guess, what leadership was about. Can you tell us that story about that meeting?

The leadership meeting that changed everything

[Corinne Gavlinski] (6:55 - 10:16)

Yeah. I had a meeting where I did speak up. You introduced our call today about how people need courage to speak up.

This was an occasion where I spoke up and did not have my emotions in check. And there were tremendous influences of politics involved in the room. And because I had not fully considered how I wanted to influence the conversation, what I wanted to say, and what the consequences might be of what I was saying, I instead let my emotions in the moment rule what was coming out of my mouth to my detriment.

And I can remember someone calling me after that meeting and saying to me, basically, what the H was that? That's not who you normally are. What were you thinking?

And it pulled me up short, Andy. I was being chastised. And I was unfamiliar with that feeling.

I hadn't had that in a while. And I was embarrassed. And I was still angry and frustrated about the conversation.

But now I had this new dimension of, oh, my goodness, what have I done? Have I hampered my ability to be a leader, an effective leader in this organization? And yet, I think I'm still right.

But maybe I didn't express this concept of being right in the right way. That was perhaps one of the pivotal points where I started to realize, wow, I didn't really have someone that was safe or confidential enough to have conversations with in that organization where I could game out what I wanted to say, where I could consider how I wanted to have my influence. And it was 20-plus years in, and what a shame that I was only recognizing that at that point in my career, so far along, instead of a decade sooner, when it might have made a huge difference.

So I tell that story because while I've had a very successful career on paper, it's been messy. I've made mistakes. There were times I was a terrible leader, case in point.

And so today, the role that I play with these senior executive leaders, I allow them a safe space, a confidential space to work through what they want to say, to have the most influence, to manage their emotions in the moment, so that they then are having the impact that they want to have. And they realize quickly that they don't have that person internally. And so seeking someone outside is a tremendous asset to them.

And I wish I had had that asset when I was in my last role, because it would have saved me an awful lot of embarrassment, and it would have allowed me to have that meeting that I just described to you be a whole lot more effective and not nearly as damaging.

[Andy Goram] (10:16 - 10:19)

I'm sure. What did you really learn about yourself in that moment?

Self-awareness, ego and leadership growth

[Corinne Gavlinski] (10:20 - 12:06)

You know, it gave me a lot of self-awareness, Andy. I think, you know, myself included, executives are often applauded, and rightly so, for the behaviours that they have to get things done, that move things forward, that hit goals. And sometimes that comes with a dark side.

And that dark side can sometimes be being a little ego-driven, you know, having some maybe bad behaviours around being overwhelming to some people, not incorporating others' feedback, kind of charging ahead with blinders on. And I think in that moment, it made me much more self-aware of some of my own dark side behaviours, which is I'm very impatient sometimes. And it frustrates me when we have the same conversation over and over and over again, and people are conversing for purposes of hearing themselves talk rather than making decisions and moving activity forward, right?

So this is one of my darker side behaviours. And so what that illuminated for me is I could be much more effective if I was able to control that urge to become impatient. And then the flip side of that is, and what else would be possible if I could control that urge?

So I think it was around my own being more self-aware of my own behaviours, how they help, how they don't help. And it was a good reminder that I'm not all that, frankly.

[Andy Goram] (12:06 - 12:11)

Sometimes that's a great lesson to learn, right? Sometimes that's a great lesson, yeah. A hundred percent.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (12:11 - 12:51)

And sometimes executives need that, right? They need someone. They have people tell them yes all day long.

They have people, you know, especially if they're very senior, there's very few people that speak truth to power and tell them, no, that's a terrible idea. So I think that's why I'm effective in working with executive leaders, not just because I've sat in their shoes or sat in their seats, so to speak, but because I match their intensity. I'm not afraid to tell them, you've said that three times, what are you doing about that?

Because it doesn't sound to me like you're doing anything about that. They might not like it, but they sure do sit up straight and go, oh.

[Andy Goram] (12:52 - 13:00)

I can definitely sense that you would scare the bejesus out of me in some situations, Corinne. There's no question about that, right? And that's a good thing.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (13:00 - 13:09)

I'm not afraid to be direct. I'm not afraid to be direct. And you know, I've appreciated people in my life that are direct with me, like the person that said, what the H was that?

[Andy Goram] (13:10 - 13:23)

I think this is the thing, right? Trying to combine the need for directness today and still not offend people and get them to do stuff is a tricky thing for people to kind of get their head around, I think.

Why curiosity matters more than directness

[Corinne Gavlinski] (13:23 - 13:46)

Yes, it is. And with multi-generations in the workforce, the way one generation would approach that is markedly different than another generation would receive it. And I think it's the testament of a really good leader when they can modulate directness with curiosity.

And very few leaders are taught how to be curious.

[Andy Goram] (13:47 - 14:42)

I like that. I wonder if we could just, just maybe rewind a little something that you said here about, uh, the people that you work with, the senior executives and what have you. I wonder whether your experience is going to help us out here because I think there's an element of your work, or for me, at least there's a connection to what you do in helping other people understand how to effectively challenge up, you know, when you, when you are, um, you just said speak truth to power when you're trying to make a challenge with someone who has, let's be honest, a hierarchical seniority or whatever it might be, or level of experience bigger than yours. Why do you think so many capable, experienced people struggle with that whole notion of effectively challenging upwards? What is it about it that you see holds them back?

Challenging upwards: Why timing and context matter

[Corinne Gavlinski] (14:43 - 16:19)

This might be an unusual answer, but I don't think young leaders are taught time and place. So said another way, I don't think they are effective always at reading the room. There is a time and a place to challenge senior leadership and knowing when and being able to ascertain when is the right time and place is a skill that's really not well taught or not often taught, and you usually don't learn it through teaching.

You usually learn it by having someone else model the behaviour for you or having a mentor who will be courageous enough to say to you, that wasn't your moment, and let me tell you what, you know? So that would be my first answer. The second answer is more about corporate culture, which is, you know, something you might have expected me to say, which is that not every corporate culture embraces different ideas.

Not every corporate culture makes it safe to fail. Not every corporate culture welcomes input at multiple levels within the organization. So I think people are somewhat fearful of being not so much reprimanded, but judged by what they might say in senior settings.

And then the third thing is not knowing how to say it appropriately, you know?

[Andy Goram] (16:20 - 16:56)

Especially if they're emotionally led, right? Maybe they're a young, capable manager in a senior environment for the first time and they're disagreeing and they overplay their confidence and get it wrong and the reaction isn't great. This is one of that lived experience moments that could then stop you doing that challenge again.

Now, the challenge itself may have been the right thing to do, but like you said, timing could be wrong, language could be wrong, even the way it's delivered could be wrong, and that then shadows you.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (16:56 - 18:23)

Absolutely. Tone of voice. Tone of voice, absolutely.

You know, and that's where a senior leader really earns impact. If a senior leader in that scenario that you just described is willing to extend themselves and say to that younger leader, I appreciate what you had to say. Here's how I might offer for you to do that differently next time, and here's why.

Let me tell you how I might have said it. Hugely impactful in a young leader's life because the simple truth is, Andy, you have to get it wrong at least once, learn it. Then you've really got to be willing to receive also.

You know, you've got to be willing to take a cold hard look at yourself and say, huh, maybe this isn't working for me. So that comes back to some self-awareness. But I think when a young person does that, it's not immediately their fault, right?

It is incumbent upon a more senior leader with experience to extend that help and say, hey, what you said was valuable. However, let me tell you why this place where you did it was maybe not the best. Your tone could have improved.

Otherwise, how does that person ever know? If they just get judged and perhaps they're seen differently or overlooked for other opportunities, they'll never understand or learn.

[Andy Goram] (18:24 - 19:19)

Yeah, I think that reading the room is a real skill that definitely comes with experience. I don't think it's something naturally, unless you're a real empath, I don't necessarily think that's something people get. And I wonder whether this is where that whole influence play can be differentiated in that certain situation.

You think maybe where you have come from previously, maybe you're still dependent on some of that ego that you mentioned before, as opposed to, I think, realistically, when you move through some of those circles, actually, you now need to influence through a different method. So confidence and ego can get you so far, but actually, meaning and purpose behind the influence, I think that's what it takes as you move through an organization. That's my theory anyway.

How do you feel about that?

Leadership influence starts with intention

[Corinne Gavlinski] (19:19 - 20:34)

Yeah. I think intention is a big thing that we don't often communicate to one another, that I think we would be served well to share more often. You can share intention without having to be emotionally vulnerable.

And what I mean by that is I think certain generations, mine included, are less comfortable being vulnerable. But if I can just help a leader to be more comfortable communicating intention, that usually meets someone who does appreciate vulnerability more than halfway. And so what that might sound like is speaking with a person on my team once, I said to them, we need to have a hard conversation today.

My intent is to really help you grow, and I know what I'm going to say is going to sting a little, but my intention is I want you to know and understand it so that I can help you. That's not me being emotionally vulnerable as much as it's me stating what my intention is, and it takes the sting a little bit out of delivering some very direct feedback.

[Andy Goram] (20:35 - 20:46)

Yeah. That's all part of that showing up for the individual, right? That's showing that this conversation is not just me chastising or whatever it might be.

This is a growth conversation. It's a coaching conversation. It's a support.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (20:46 - 21:00)

But what did that take me? Less than 30 seconds to say? How many times does a senior executive really take the time to do that unless they are very intentional and very aware of their own skills and capabilities? Not often.

[Andy Goram] (21:01 - 21:21)

Yeah, I would say it's probably been rare in my experience. There's been some fantastic leadership behaviour that I've worked for, and they've definitely done that. There's been others where they're much more direct without any emotion, without any connection.

It's just very formulaic almost.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (21:21 - 21:41)

We don't really teach this in quote leadership school. We don't teach people to share intention. We teach them to give feedback.

Well, if you're upset with the way something went and your emotion is probably, let me just tell this person what they did wrong so that they don't do it again.

[Andy Goram] (21:41 - 21:42)

Sure.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (21:42 - 22:16)

Without taking that extra couple of seconds to really think about, what do I want this person to learn from this conversation? What do I want them to do next time and how can I model that for them? It's subtle, but it takes a couple of minutes and you've got to remind yourself to do it.

And leaders that are self-aware, leaders that work on their leadership tend to do it. And leaders who are just frankly going through the motions and doing their darndest to hit their goals aren't really doing it. And that's not that they're bad people.

[Andy Goram] (22:17 - 22:18)

No, no, not necessarily.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (22:18 - 22:19)

Coasting along. Absolutely.

[Andy Goram] (22:20 - 22:23)

I would say there are still some people who just don't give a shit.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (22:23 - 22:26)

That's true. True. True. I don't tend to work with those people.

[Andy Goram] (22:26 - 22:29)

No, no, no, quite, quite, right? I may have worked for some.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (22:30 - 22:33)

Yes, indeed. I most certainly have worked for some.

[Andy Goram] (22:35 - 23:06)

I would love to just dig into what you said about vulnerability because I'm just interested in your perspective. We've talked about this topic quite a few times on this podcast, outside of the podcast, in the work that I get to do, in the rooms that I get to walk into. It happens more frequently.

But in your experience, do you see a tied change with leadership's relationship, understanding, use of vulnerability, or is it still not something that really shows up like the press would have it say?

Rethinking vulnerability in leadership

[Corinne Gavlinski] (23:07 - 26:08)

Yeah, it's a great question. Andy, I'll caveat my answer by saying my clients tend to skew middle-aged, 45 to 50 plus, and are very senior leaders in their organization. Among those individuals, I think there's still quite a bit of work to be done.

Though even the word vulnerability rarely is said in my conversations with my clients. That said, I think younger generations crave some level of vulnerability. I came up in my career in a time when we didn't talk about vulnerability.

We didn't talk about psychological safety. I'm a classic Gen X-er. You just push through and get the job done.

Yep. And so, my generation, I think, if I make a broad statement, has difficulty with the pause for emotion and vulnerability. We lack some skills, frankly, that I think younger generations have.

But that doesn't mean we're without empathy. We just don't think of work in terms of the emotion or vulnerable side. And so, I think we have quite a bit more work to do in this regard.

I don't think it's as optimistic as the media would have us believe. Yet, there's a time and a place for vulnerability. I don't think it needs to be all the time or as much even as sometimes the media reports.

And what I mean by that is, and perhaps this is my generational bias coming out, but work is work. It is not meant to be your emotional support vehicle necessarily, in my opinion. It is wonderful when you enjoy the people you work with and you enjoy the work you're doing and can leave the day feeling like you made an impact in whatever it is that your vocation is.

I don't know that it needs to be the end all or the even major source of emotion and vulnerability in your life. Again, that could be my generational bias coming out. But I think it is incumbent upon leaders to meet their people where they are, to demonstrate intention, and to demonstrate curiosity.

And if I can help leaders do that, I think, my personal belief is, I think it meets more than halfway on this notion of vulnerability.

[Andy Goram] (26:09 - 27:31)

Yeah. I think there's a definition thing in vulnerability too. Look, I'm an Xer.

I mean, I say without any bias intended at all, it's probably the greatest generation that the world's ever seen. I am joking listeners, right? I get it.

Fine. I'm coming from the same place, right? But I think this vulnerability thing can be conflated sometimes with a very heavy emotional downloading of how you're feeling.

Where for me, when I think of vulnerability, I'm thinking about the ability and the confidence somebody has to say, I don't think the same way. I don't get what you're saying. I might have a different perspective, or most importantly, I think I need some help getting through this.

I've got a problem. I don't have all the answers. Now to me, they don't sound like overly emotional kind of crutches to rely on, right?

I think people get vulnerability and sympathy and empathy all mixed up into some big bag of emotion. And when I think of vulnerability like that, that's why I asked the question around senior leadership and a perceived block of being vulnerable. And I wonder whether it's in that misdiagnosis, misdefinition of it, that's actually causing the problem.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (27:32 - 28:17)

Excellent point. Excellent point. Yes.

Couldn't agree more. I think it absolutely is in that misaligned diagnosis or definition of what we mean. You made me think of two others that I absolutely love and work with leaders on, which is this concept of saying, I messed up.

I don't like the way I spoke to you yesterday. Can we have a do-over? Or even better, I made a decision that I thought was right at the time, but now I have some different information and I need to make a different decision and here's why.

Yeah. Right? That gets at the heart of what I think we mean when we say vulnerable without the emotional, here's how I feel about this.

[Andy Goram] (28:17 - 28:59)

Yeah. I think that is, for me, that's great examples of what I feel vulnerability is about. I didn't write the definition of vulnerability.

I'm not the world's expert on vulnerability. I just think I have a feeling that it's being overplayed in one area, that vulnerability is some big emotional load. And in other areas, that's scary for some people because it makes some sort of chink in the armor that they've been taught that they need to have.

People are looking at you. If you're not in control, if you're not fearless, if you're not full of courage all the time, if you admit the fact you haven't got an answer, well, you're letting everybody down. That's bullshit.

That is not what leadership is about, I don't think.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (29:00 - 29:05)

No. No. But the more senior you become, the more that reality sets in.

[Andy Goram] (29:05 - 29:05)

Yeah.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (29:05 - 29:41)

Because the stakes are so much higher and there genuinely is often no one else you can talk to. Think about who does a CEO share his or her most vulnerable fears with about the decisions they're making, or about the team member that they think is not cutting it, or about the board pressure and how just exhausting that is. They can't share that with anyone because to do so would be to admit weakness and they feel as though they can't show that weakness or share that weakness.

[Andy Goram] (29:41 - 30:02)

But then I guess this is why the notion of a thinking partner or working with someone like you can be really beneficial for a senior leader. Weirdly, if we're going round in a circle here, the very fact of getting someone like you could be seen as vulnerability, right? Could be.

Because I don't have all the answers.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (30:02 - 30:03)

Right. Could be.

[Andy Goram] (30:03 - 30:16)

And even in those conversations, however work-directed they are, they're going to bring issues to kind of work through. And the sharing of those issues is being vulnerable, right? So for me, it's kind of like ironic, the whole thing.

Why every leader needs a thinking partner

[Corinne Gavlinski] (30:16 - 31:38)

Circle. Yeah, yeah. I think I often talk about working with someone like myself, a thinking partner, as a competitive advantage.

I don't think of it as seeking help, right? This is not therapy. We're going to work through some stuff that's hard and gnarly and politically charged and we're going to get to answers.

You're going to get into action. So I speak often about the fact that it's competitive advantage. An executive should not view it as, I need help.

They should view it as, I want a competitive advantage and I want to personally get better at what I do. What I do is hard to describe to people. You know, I have often joked with my clients about how would they describe me?

And it's funny, you know, the men take a very dry approach. They're like, well, I would, you know, when I refer people to you, I just tell them, you know, Corinne helped me with a problem, like, similar to what you're discussing with me or you're describing to me. You should talk to her.

She'll really help you. And that's a very, I mean, that undersells it quite a bit. But that's how I think sometimes people speak with one another, right?

They don't say, well, I unloaded all this stuff on Corinne and we diagnosed it and we discussed it and we came up with a, like, they don't, that's not how people talk. Hmm.

[Andy Goram] (31:38 - 32:15)

Yeah. I think this is what's interesting about this whole arc I had in my head for this conversation around the cost of staying silent because we're flip-flopping between leadership, regular people and their attitudes towards speaking up in front of each other, but also challenging upwards inside organizations. And, and you've just brought it round to another, another area of actually the performance cost of staying silent on this stuff.

It's not just about staying silent in the challenge in the room. It's actually staying silent on yourself, right? It's just not leaning into this stuff and pushing through.

The hidden cost of staying silent

[Corinne Gavlinski] (32:16 - 33:07)

Correct. Correct. So if you're, you know, if you're someone who genuinely wants to advance and genuinely has ambition, not just for the sake of financial gain, but because you, you, you know, actively are motivated to do more, I think being able to speak up is an absolutely critical skill. Absolutely critical. Even in the worst of corporate environments, you need to be able to do that, but you must understand time and place and context, like we've discussed, your tone of voice and make darn sure what you're saying is meant to influence and is not riddled with emotion.

And that's, those are hard things to do. Those are hard things to figure out alone.

[Andy Goram] (33:08 - 33:23)

I think so, because you can't always see it. I don't care how self-aware you are. We've all got little blind spots and we've also got things that we know we're doing.

We, we, we really know we're doing them, but we won't be honest to ourselves.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (33:23 - 34:35)

And we do them anyway. Yeah, we do them anyway. Yeah.

And, you know, I am a flawed leader. Still. I can see in many of my clients’ qualities that exist in me and it, it gives me such, um, God, dare I say the word joy.

Um, it gives me such joy really that I can get someone laughing with me about a behaviour or a thing that we both do that is so counterintuitive to what we really want. And that bit of humour, that bit of sarcasm perhaps is just enough to crack the ice of getting someone to be able to laugh at themselves and then find a different way forward. And it doesn't mean they're going to do it perfectly.

It means they're going to do it eight times out of 10 maybe, you know, if we can just aspire to be a little bit better, um, those are the leaders that really go far and they will help very young leaders do the same thing.

[Andy Goram] (34:35 - 34:42)

I love that. And by the way, you can absolutely have a license to use the word joy on this podcast. That's very much allowed and encouraged.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (34:42 - 35:05)

It's not a word I use often, just like I don't use the word vulnerability very often. I don't use the word joy very often, but I, this part of my career, this third or fourth chapter that I'm on now is really tremendously rewarding. And it's because my clients teach me every bit as much about myself as I teach them about themselves.

[Andy Goram] (35:06 - 35:06)

I love it.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (35:06 - 35:08)

And that's amazing.

[Andy Goram] (35:08 - 35:58)

Part of this conversation, I guess, for me is exploring this notion of finding your voice or being comfort comfortable to even speak up and use that voice in whatever setting it is leader or not, um, without really losing who you are, which I think as we started to sort of unpick, right.

I know that you've talked about influence, uh, impact in those situations. It's a competitive edge and all those sorts of things. But I also know you have previously talked about four zones that leaders operate in.

And I think this is sort of definitely related to some of this, like finding yourself, finding your voice without losing yourself. And just talk us through those sort of four zones that you, that you reference in your works. I think that's going to be really useful.

Understanding the Four Leadership Zones

[Corinne Gavlinski] (35:59 - 39:02)

The, the four zones are the impact zone, the chaos zone, the erosion zone and the disengagement zone. And those zones are just places I coined for places in your leadership that you may be at any given moment. And as leaders, I believe we float in and out of them, right?

You're never in one place for too long. Um, and you're certainly never always in the impact zone, right? Uh, we wish we were, but we, we really aren't.

And so, you know, this has everything to do with what is occurring in your environment in the moment, what is occurring for you in the moment and where are you really sitting? And I believe that we should strive to be in the impact zone. And when we strive for that, we are more self-aware, we are more strategic in terms of how we're leading and we're not allowing the topic or the issue or emergency of the moment to override who we want to be as leaders.

And that's probably the most important thing is continuously coming back to what kind of leader do I want to be? You know, how, if I died tomorrow, what, what, how would I want people to describe me as a leader? And for people that I work with that tend to be more middle-aged, they start to worry about that.

They start to worry about how am I perceived as a leader? Am I being, did I achieve the things that I thought I was going to achieve back when I was in my twenties? Um, and what kind of legacy, legacy am I really leaving here?

And so it becomes a very rich conversation about, well, how do you want to be perceived? Do your actions even align with who you want to be? And if not, well, how do we get you there?

The chaos zone is self-explanatory. Um, you're, you're just fighting fires all day long. You don't really have time to take a breath, let alone be strategic.

And so you're really being ruled by the moment. Disengagement and, and erosion are a little more around apathy sometimes. Um, so maybe you're, you're just a little, um, disenfranchised with the work you're doing and whether it really matters for you.

Um, or it could be that your team's doing really well. They're, you know, they're hitting goal. They're fine.

Like everything's kind of cranking along. There's not really much need for you to do too much more of that, or at least the belief that that's the case. And you know, neither of those places are good places to hang out in.

Um, but you've got to recognize that you're in them first. So, you know, it comes up in conversation with my clients about, well, where do you see yourself today? And you know, where do you want to spend more time?

Or how do you want to reallocate how you spend your time in those zones? And, and how do we get you there quickly?

[Andy Goram] (39:02 - 40:13)

Because I think this is what, this is my point around whilst finding your voice, you don't want to lose yourself. So I think awareness of those zones and where you're playing and what gets you into those zones and how effective they are is really useful. But also come back to your point about your clients, maybe being in that kind of middle-aged spectrum and thinking about their, their legacy or thinking about their leadership identity at that stage in their career.

You know, what a great thing to think about at the early stage of your leadership career, right? If, if, you know, if I can work out my identity early doors, then, then I have a, a, a helpful set of guardrails and guide rails to use and stick within as I go through my career. And so for me, I would encourage anybody listening to, you know, find, find a thinking partner to help think through what is the identity that I want, right?

And that doesn't have to be something crazy from what you already are. It might be absolutely concentrated on, on who you are today, but it might also identify some areas to grow and develop and, and pursue, right?

[Corinne Gavlinski] (40:14 - 42:44)

The pressure on young workers and leaders is so harsh to just get ahead, right? Climb the proverbial ladder. It starts as early as high school and college of, you got to get to the next thing.

There's this pressure to get to the next thing with very little reflection on what that thing means to you or what that thing will give you. Um, it's a shame, honestly. And I was the exact same way.

All I was focused on was getting to the next level of my career. And for me, it was, yes, my own ambition, um, perhaps gone rogue, but it was also an over-exuberance of confidence that led me to just keep achieving and keep achieving and keep achieving. And what a shame that I didn't pick my head up sooner and say, for what end?

How do I want to be perceived? How do I want others to view what I'm doing? And do I want influence?

Do I want impact? And if so, how do I think about those things? What do those things mean to me?

They mean different things to different people. Yeah. What an amazing thing that that would have given me.

Now, I will say, when you're younger in your career, it is easier to find peers to have that conversation with. There's less political navigation to do, it's less fraught with consequence, and it's easier to have those conversations. As you start to become a more senior leader, that peer set starts to erode.

And you no longer have those confident, enough confidential, um, individuals that you can have those now harder conversations with. Because often, the more senior you become, you don't always trust that someone will keep your conversation confidential, and you're worried about who it might get around to or what might be said, right? There's a lot more at stake.

And so, young people should seek mentors, seek coaches if their organizations offer them, have peer conversations as much as they can, and really start to learn about themselves. And once you get to more senior levels, then I think it is very smart to seek someone outside your organization to have those conversations with. And that can be anyone, Andy.

Why outside perspective makes better leaders

It doesn't have to be someone that, you know, like myself, that's a thinking partner or an executive coach. It could be anyone, but I do recommend it's someone outside the organization.

[Andy Goram] (42:45 - 43:26)

I think that's really important. When I was introduced to my first exec coach back in, you know, some years ago in my career, Hillary took me out of my comfort zone and made me look at stuff I already was aware of and pointed out a few things that I wasn't aware of. And that was the first time, I think, in my career, in my development area in that career, of properly leading into some things that if I'd been on my own, I would have ignored or I would have bypassed or I would have bailed out on.

You know, being held accountable for behaviour by someone independent for the first time was a very, very, very different experience.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (43:27 - 43:28)

Hard and uncomfortable.

[Andy Goram] (43:29 - 43:29)

Yeah.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (43:30 - 43:34)

But better you do it on your own terms than be caught out on it, like I was in that meeting.

[Andy Goram] (43:35 - 44:02)

Great advice. I mean, and talking of advice, we've got to this part of the show, Corinne, where I'm looking for you to put three little bits of advice together for the listeners that we could fit on little sticky notes. We're not talking about 17 pages of deep heartfelt notes here, just little sticky notes.

So if we think about this topic of giving people some practical advice for finding their voice without losing themselves, what would your advice be?

Sticky Notes

[Corinne Gavlinski] (44:03 - 45:06)

Yeah. Oh, I love this. Number one piece of advice would be to ask yourself, where can I be more curious?

Because curiosity leads to finding a voice. And when you're curious, your tone seems to be tends to be spot on. I would absolutely ask yourself, what does it mean to me to be impactful in my career or at home, but for the purposes of this conversation in my career?

Who in my life is my confidential partner or who in my life could be my confidential partner? So those are three questions, more than three hard and fast, here's what I want you to do. But if you answer those three questions, you'll get to my advice.

Be more curious, know what impact means for you, and get somebody in your life who can give you good, sound advice when you need it.

[Andy Goram] (45:07 - 45:22)

Said like a true coach. Love it. Absolutely love it.

Really good. Corinne, I've really loved meeting you and talking to you today. I'm sure there are people listening that will want to find out a bit more about you, track you down.

Where should they go looking? Where can they find you?

[Corinne Gavlinski] (45:22 - 45:54)

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. It's been my pleasure to be here today, Andy.

I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and meeting you. It's been one of the best opportunities I think I've had. I just really felt a connection with talking with you and I think we unveiled some great things today.

So thank you for the opportunity. People can find me on LinkedIn at Corinne Gavlinski. They can also email me at Corinne at thegavgroup.com.

And certainly you can find me at thegavgroup.com also, which is my website.

[Andy Goram] (45:55 - 46:07)

Beautiful, beautiful stuff. Well, we'll put all of that information in the show notes and just leaves me saying thank you so much for being so generous with your time. And I've really enjoyed this conversation and I look forward to our next meeting.

[Corinne Gavlinski] (46:08 - 46:11)

As well as do I. Thank you so much, Andy. Take care.

[Andy Goram] (46:12 - 46:53)

And you, take care. Okay, everyone, that was Corinne Gavlinski. And if you'd like to find out a bit more about her or any of the things we've talked about in today's show, please check out the show notes.

So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like, comment and subscribe.

It really helps. I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside Podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.

Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.