Why A.I. Makes Human Collaboration More Important

Andy Goram (left) and Chris White (right) discuss human collaboration in the wake of the A.I. explosion

AI is changing almost every conversation about work. We're told it will make us faster. More productive. More efficient. And in many cases, that's true.

But what if there's an unintended consequence? What if AI is helping teams become more productive while simultaneously making organisations less connected?

That was one of the most thought-provoking ideas to emerge from my conversation with Chris White. Chris has spent more than three decades leading teams, scaling organisations and driving transformation across some of the world's most recognisable businesses. From helping Cisco grow from a $1 billion company to a $50 billion powerhouse, to leadership roles spanning multiple industries and continents, he's seen first-hand what separates high-performing organisations from the rest. And his conclusion is surprisingly simple.

The future doesn't belong to organisations that simply adopt AI. It belongs to organisations that learn how to combine artificial intelligence with exceptional human collaboration.

🎧 Listen to the full conversation here:

📄 If you prefer to read instead? The full transcript is available below this blog.

AI Is Making Us More Capable. But Is It Making Us Better Together?

One of the recurring themes throughout our conversation was how quickly technology is changing the way we work. Today, every department has access to powerful tools that can generate ideas, analyse information, create content and solve problems faster than ever before. Marketing has A.I. HR has A.I. Finance has A.I. Sales has A.I. On the surface, that sounds like progress. But Chris raised an interesting challenge.

If every function becomes more self-sufficient, could organisations accidentally become more fragmented?

In other words, could AI create smarter silos?

It's not a criticism of technology. Far from it. Chris describes himself as a digital optimist. Instead, it's a reminder that productivity and alignment are not the same thing. Teams can become incredibly efficient at pursuing their own objectives while drifting further away from one another.And when that happens, performance eventually suffers.

Collaboration Is More Than Teamwork

One of the misconceptions Chris challenges is the idea that collaboration simply means people working together. Most of us picture collaboration as meetings, workshops, brainstorming sessions or groups of people working side-by-side. But effective collaboration runs deeper than that.

It's about alignment. It's about understanding where the organisation is trying to go and ensuring that individual efforts contribute to that shared destination. Two people don't need to be sitting in the same room or working on the same project to be collaborating. If they're moving towards the same objective, guided by the same priorities and operating within the same framework, they're contributing to a collaborative outcome. That's a subtle but important distinction. Because many organisations spend significant time encouraging teamwork while paying less attention to creating alignment.

Why Great Teams Start With Understanding People

Chris shared a story from his time at Cisco that illustrates another important lesson. A colleague once challenged him to look beyond job titles and functions and really understand the personalities within his leadership team. What followed was a deeper exploration of individual differences, working styles and communication preferences. The result wasn't simply greater awareness. It was better performance.

Because people don't collaborate effectively when they merely tolerate one another. They collaborate effectively when they understand one another. Different perspectives, experiences and approaches create strength. But only if people know how to work with those differences rather than against them. That's why Chris places so much emphasis on helping teams genuinely understand who they're working with. Not just what they do. But how they think.

The Myth Of The Hero Leader

Another theme running throughout the conversation was the challenge to traditional leadership thinking.

For years we've celebrated the image of the heroic leader.The visionary.The expert.

The person with all the answers. Yet Chris's experience suggests that model is becoming increasingly difficult to sustain. Modern organisations are simply too complex. No individual can hold all the answers. No single function can drive success alone.

The leaders who create the greatest impact aren't necessarily the smartest people in the room. They're the people who create environments where others can perform at their best.

When I think back to the leaders who've had the biggest influence on my own career, I don't remember them because of their strategic brilliance. I remember them because they helped me achieve things I didn't think I was capable of. They challenged me. Supported me. Developed me. And in doing so, brought out more than I could see in myself.

Perhaps that's one of the clearest measures of leadership. Not what you achieve yourself. But what you enable others to achieve.

What Rowing Can Teach Us About Performance

Chris's background in competitive rowing offered another powerful lens through which to view collaboration. Unlike many sports, rowing doesn't allow for substitutions, time-outs or moments to reset. When the race starts, everyone is committed. Success depends entirely on rhythm, trust, coordination and shared effort.

One person out of sync affects everyone. One lapse in concentration creates drag. The boat only moves at its maximum potential when every individual contributes to a common rhythm. The parallels with organisational life are hard to miss. Many teams are filled with talented individuals. But talent alone doesn't guarantee performance. Without alignment, trust and shared commitment, even highly capable people can end up working against one another.

Human Collaboration Is The Other Superpower

Towards the end of our conversation, Chris shared what may have been the episode's most memorable insight. He described AI as a superpower. But not the only one.

The second superpower, he argued, is human collaboration. And that's where the real opportunity lies. Because while technology continues to evolve at extraordinary speed, the organisations that thrive will still depend on people.

People who can build trust. People who can align around a common goal. People who can challenge each other constructively. People who can combine their strengths to achieve something bigger than any individual could accomplish alone. AI may help us work faster.

But collaboration determines whether we're moving in the same direction. And in a world becoming more complex by the day, that distinction may matter more than ever.

Final Thoughts

Chris White's book is called Non-Optional Collaboration. After our conversation, it's easy to see why. Collaboration is no longer a nice-to-have, and it certainly isn't something that can be left to chance.

As AI continues to reshape the workplace, leaders face a choice. Focus solely on technology and risk creating smarter silos. Or invest equally in the human relationships, alignment and trust that allow organisations to thrive. Because the future may not belong to those with the best technology. It may just belong to those who become best at bringing people together around it.

Full Episode Transcript

[Andy Goram] (0:11 - 3:21)

Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the podcast that explores how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help you turn the lights on behind the eyes of your people, light the fires within them and help more of us lead successful, fulfilling work lives. This podcast is for anyone who believes that's worth going after and is curious about what really drives people, culture and performance.

Each episode we dive into the ideas and conversations that help create what I call stickier businesses, places where people thrive and love to work and where customers stay, recommend you and love what you do and why you do it. So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.

Why collaboration has become non-optional

Okay then, now for years we've celebrated the idea of the heroic leader, the visionary, the expert, the person with all the answers.

But really, is that still fit for purpose today? What if the biggest challenge facing organisations today isn't finding even smarter, more capable people, but helping smart people just work better together? Because let's face it, we're operating in a world that's become more connected, more complex and more disrupted by technology than seemingly ever before.

AI is changing the way we work, markets are moving faster and with more volatility, information is everywhere and despite all of our advances, organisations still seem to struggle with creating silos, competing agendas, poor communication and as a result, fractured relationships. My guest today believes that's because we've misunderstood the whole thing around collaboration. We've treated it like a nice-to-have, a soft skill, but according to Chris White, collaboration isn't optional anymore.

It's become the standard operating system for modern leadership and modern successful organisations. Now, Chris has spent more than three decades helping some of the world's most recognisable organisations grow, transform and innovate. From helping scale Cisco through one of the most remarkable growth stories in technology to leadership roles at Philips and Bloom Energy, he's seen firsthand what happens when people are lined around a shared purpose and what happens when they don't.

His new book, Non-Optional Collaboration, argues that success today depends on our ability to understand one another, create meaningful relationships and build systems that allow people and technology to thrive together. So, today I reckon we're going to explore why collaboration matters, what leaders continue to get wrong on that front and why the rise of AI might actually make human connection even more important. Chris, welcome to the show, my friend.

 

Meet Chris White and the lessons of a global career

[Chris White] (3:22 - 3:38)

Andy, great to be on. Thank you for the great introduction. Looking forward to a good conversation here and as you can probably tell from prior conversations, got a little bit of a passion about this topic because I think it's so important for everyone.

It's not just a big corporate dynamic, it's very applicable for all of us.

[Andy Goram] (3:39 - 4:03)

I also think, and we'll probably explore this, Chris, it's a taken for granted, right? Even when we were discussing, you know, what we're going to talk about and the book and all that, there's little moments of, really, we're going to talk about collaboration. Everybody gets that, everybody understands that.

It's just not the case. I think it's just one of those things, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we collaborate. Do you?

Really? How's that working for you?

[Chris White] (4:04 - 5:44)

Oh, Andy, you know, we're recording this around the World Cup and to your point, right, we're both sports fans. You know, the expectation to kind of show up and execute as a team both in sports and in business, to your point, it's a given. It's like you expect it, so of course it works.

But in my experiences that, to your point, have been very broad and wide and global, I'm like, oh my goodness, you know, you think you are. And just recently I've kind of put this sort of acid test in place to say, okay, what's the feedback when you're down the pub after the meeting without the boss? What is that conversation reflecting on the meeting?

Is it, oh my god, how aligned, I couldn't believe the agenda, we got the tough issues out on the table, we've made great progress, or unfortunately, more times or not, it's, I can't believe we didn't talk about, are you kidding me, we spent two hours on fill in the blanks. And that's the collaboration gap that I think is the real, or no, I think, I know, I've experienced it, I've tasted it, I've been part of those conversation after meetings, right? It's a real item and therefore, I try to capture my passion and try and give people a framework to use from to get better at it, to lean into it.

And you also touched on AI. Hey, it's a superpower, but you don't just hand your teenage kid the keys to your first car and say, get on with it, have fun. You kind of give them some direction, you help them understand how you use it.

I think we've got to be more conscious about how we use collaboration.

[Andy Goram] (5:45 - 6:33)

I think this is what's really interesting today, because you're not just a Joe off the street who goes, you know what, collaboration is a good idea. You've worked in some pretty well-known places on some pretty high profile stuff. You have the scars and the bruises of when collaboration has projected you forward to do amazing things, and when it's fallen short and caused problems for you.

And I'd really like you to share some of that background with the audience, because I think we are in danger of talking about a topic, like we've just sort of said that people go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We all collaborate. And the reality is, I think it's relative.

I think when you've experienced incredible collaboration, meaningful, purposeful collaboration, it feels very different to getting on with somebody who sits next to me at work. So tell us a little bit about that background. Give us a brief introduction to the history bit of it.

[Chris White] (6:34 - 11:02)

Yeah, boy, you be careful. There's a lot out there now, man. I want to try and keep this succinct.

But hey, I know I hide my British accent well. I'm an active Brit, a proud American citizen, but I try and package it up. I'm actually a global citizen and a digital optimist.

The Cisco experience: learning to unlock team performance

Obviously, big highlight was an amazing time of life and career when I joined Cisco at $1 billion, left $50 billion later. And it wasn't just that journey. It was the people, the operating system, the things we learned.

And I think one big takeaway that I try and encourage everyone to really embrace is this idea of lifelong learning, which candidly, I don't think they talk enough about at school and college. They just say, hey, learn this and this, and you'll be fine. But sandwiched between an amazing career at Cisco, before that, I was a startup guy.

I did a startup in the UK, which was way before venture capital and people being millionaires. And yeah, we wanted to be successful, but we were selling to keep the lights on to pay the rent type thing. And that was a very grounding experience.

Luckily, that ended up well. And we sold that one to Microsoft, moved to California, joined this startup company in Santa Cruz, California, of all places, took it public, sold it to Cisco, joined Cisco at a billion. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm not a big company guy.

Felt very uncomfortable. But the energy, the intensity, the opportunity, the talent just was this magnetic force to attract me to stay there for a long time. In Silicon Valley, people sort of look at you strange if you stay at a company for a long time.

But I'm like, why on earth would I go anywhere else? This company is doing some incredible things. I'm being challenged.

I'm leading. And to your point, I think it really was where I crystallized this idea, not just idea, this practice of why are we not collaborating better together? And I give one of my financial partners some credit because he, we had a very diverse team running this multi-billion dollar business at one time.

One of the first meetings I had with him, he reached into his top drawer and pulled out a deck of cards, Andy. And I'm like, a very strange thing to be doing from a finance guy. And he literally went through every single one of our leadership team and said, well, Tracy's an orange, Gregory's a yellow.

And I'm like, what? And he's like, look how diverse your team is, Chris. And you and I, and we have got a challenge to get these people really working together.

And so we kind of took that idea, did personality tests with our team, realized, you know, even us kind of older white guys kind of thing diversified because of the backgrounds we had. And so how did we facilitate and get people to understand to get the best out of this team? We really needed to understand each other better.

And then post-Cisco, you know, three big publicly traded, heavy transformational jobs where companies needed to find that next gear and go up to a new level. Been fortunate enough to travel the world, you know, grew up in the UK, moved to California, came back to the UK to run a European business, went back to California, then got an opportunity to go to Bangalore, India of all places. So I think one of the things I'm most proud of is I've really stress tested this across cultures and working environments.

And Hey, there's a lot of bright consultants and advisors out there. A lot of them have not got their hands dirty and I've got the scar tissue and the, you know, I don't like using a sort of, you know, weaponry analogies, but, you know, dealing with live ammunition is a tricky thing. Dealing with people's emotions, dealing with people's personalities.

It takes some finesse. And I think part of my book, I write about being a straight B student. So as soon as this thing called EQ came out, I really leaned into it because I don't have that big an IQ.

And I'm like, wow, what a superpower when you can really get more out of a person and a team than they even think is possible. And as a leader, that is one of the most fulfilling things you can pull off is get to a team to execute at a level they don't even think is possible.

Why collaboration is no longer a nice-to-have

[Andy Goram] (11:02 - 11:22)

Yeah. I mean, that, that is the game, right? That, that is definitely the game that you've mentioned the book.

I mean, the book's called non-optional collaboration, right? I mean, that's a fairly strong, direct statement, Chris, and based on your experiences, where's that come from? What, why non-optional?

What are you trying to say with that?

[Chris White] (11:23 - 13:22)

Yeah. And thanks for amplifying that because I think some people look at it and like, well, hang on a minute. Isn't that like an oxymoron almost right now?

Aren't you going to want to collaborate? But any, I'm doing some advisory work at the moment with a, with a, with a very creative startup in New York and cybersecurity market. And it's a team of less than 20 people and their sales and marketing teams are, if we're not careful, ships passing in a Yeah.

And they're super motivated individuals. They're very cordial to each other, but sometimes you've got to slow down to speed up and realize, hang on a minute, marketing is creating all this great material. Sales types have got to figure out how to collaborate and leverage it, not get frustrated, not get defensive.

And then you just take that across an entire company. Look at HR or something you've invested a lot of time in, right? You know, one of the most important assets, helping our teams, helping our people often is left onto the side unless there's an emergency to deal with.

Right. So creating that culture and you wouldn't believe, even at a fantastically successful company like Cisco, Andy, the number of times I just called a timeout and said, hang on a minute, finance, marketing, sales, engineering, we're getting in a room and having a conversation. And when I was surprised about more than, more than once that meeting typically started with people looking at each other and saying, wow, I haven't been in a meeting with us all together, let alone having a structured conversation about how we can work better together.

So, yeah, it's been a fascinating combination of learning and teaching and listening to books and hearing people present, but then taking that presentation and getting your hands dirty and really making effective, uh, and it motivated me to write a book on it. Right. And hopefully it's a framework for people that leverage, you know, real life examples of how they can get better at it.

[Andy Goram] (13:23 - 14:42)

Well, let's get into some of that framework in a sec. The collaboration, I guess, oversimplification, even if you take my background, you know, marketing and HR, right? Not working in HR, but working in marketing, realizing the fact I can't get anything done without people, but also recognizing that those two departments are doing the same thing to different audiences, right?

Both are looking at recruiting, keeping growing and developing, and they just have different tactics to do those sorts of things. But did we start off in all companies working together on that sort of stuff? No.

When we did, did things take a different turn? Absolutely. You know, even in the last couple of weeks, being in rooms with some fast growing businesses and sub teams of the big leadership team, uh, amongst lots of different takeouts of our sessions together were, you know what?

We should really spend more time together talking about what each of us does. This is fundamental, what we're talking about here, right? So I've thought long and hard about the non-optional collaboration thing about it in, in, in researching this.

And I, I think it's a really interesting bit of tension in that previously the job has been, well, I've got to try to get everybody to work together. But now it's a case of, Hey, if we don't, we're in trouble, right? This is, this has to be the standard that we, that we set right from the get go.

[Chris White] (14:43 - 15:36)

Well, so, so, so Andy, if I jump in a little bit, you know, it's interesting you mentioned that term tension, right? I've heard a lot of CEOs talk about friction. It's okay to have friction in our, of course you have friction in your business, Chris, it's good for the business.

And I'm like, like, hang on a minute, you know, we're also in formula one and NASCAR series at the moment, right? You know, 10 years ago, it took a formula one team, 21 seconds to change a tire, you know, now they can do it in under three seconds. And that was not created by the guy changing the wheel, telling the gal who's refueling say, Oh, you know, take your time.

It's okay. When you're done, I'm ready. It was, I hate to say it, forcing collaboration.

Hang on a minute. How quickly, how can we coordinate? How can we get the best output out of this, these components to get it out?

And, uh, yeah, you got to be intentional about it.

What rowing teaches us about trust, rhythm and teamwork

[Andy Goram] (15:36 - 16:18)

We said we're both sporty guys and without spending the whole episode with us relying on sport, there is a classic management consultant picture of people in a boat, you know, let's all pull together, right? The classic kind of, Hey, we're one team. We're all pulling in the same direction.

Oh my God, that's amazing. What a metaphor. But in practical terms, you've got a background in serious rowing.

And so it would seem like a ridiculous opportunity, not to talk to you about collaboration and actually what it's really like in a boat, because in reality, that has to be an entity that cannot function without extreme levels of collaboration, right?

[Chris White] (16:19 - 18:28)

Andy, let's go from one extreme sports analogy to another. You're taking me from one of the biggest stadiums on this planet with one of the most high paid, you know, bankroll teams in the world to the river Wye in Hertford pouring down with rain and eight guys in a boat. And it is interesting upon reflection, how non-optional a support it is, right?

No matter what level, right? You know, my son's a great basketball player. There's no time outs in rowing.

There's no substitutions that, you know, there's not even a half time for goodness sake, right? When the flag or the whistle goes, you are committed. And I think what's also preparing for the support, you know, you spent hours mentally and physically looking for that perfect synchronization to get that boat moving as efficiently as possible to win a race.

And I was fortunate enough to have a school master that was intentional and very, you know, we went to two world championships. We went to Henley Royal Regatta a number of times. And then when the famous book, boys in the boat was written, there's a great first chapter there that I just couldn't remind my son that his dad was an athlete at one point in his life, because the phrase talks about a 2000 meter rowing race is the equivalent physically to two back-to-back basketball games.

But it's not just physical exertion. It is that collaboration and that mental toughness that you're always searching for. And I think that's the, that's why it plays to a business analogy so well.

You know, I'm not just saying read the book and you'll be perfect, you know, create a framework, create a culture where you're signing up to constant improvement. You've got the right mindset, but then you have a framework to collaborate at a whole new level that I would almost guarantee you can get more out of your team than you're getting today. Don't put up with functional silos.

Don't put up with friction.

Inside the Non-Optional Collaboration framework

[Andy Goram] (18:28 - 18:48)

Yeah. So let's, let's dig into that framework because you've mentioned the framework word a couple of times. That is what I guess the book is built around, right?

This, this framework for real collaboration. Can you, can you lay it out for us? Just give us a sort of a high level view of what this framework is and maybe pick some of the component parts and just walk us through that.

[Chris White] (18:49 - 23:43)

Happy to. I, I, you know, and actually what I try and highlight is it actually starts off with making sure you've got the right foundation. And for me, actually the foundation is mindset and attitude, right?

You've got to have, you've got to kind of find that mental place of having a positive mental attitude, but there is an opportunity, no matter how good or how bad things are, there's an opportunity to improve. Right. And that's straight out of the lean mindset sort of teaching that we, that's pretty pervasive at the moment.

But then, you know, number one is a leader. Do you really understand your North star? Right?

Where are you going? Right. You know, there's one thing to say, you want to be successful.

You want to win, get aims. You got to kind of really put some clarity and quantifiable nature to where you're going. And it's the old adage, you know, how can you get anywhere if you don't set a goal type, type approach.

The second piece is then, okay, if you have a team, which most of us do, you know, big or small, do you really know them or are you relying on the interview process, the culture of your meeting, you know, yeah, they all seem to get along when they get together. Is that really a solid enough foundation to really get the most out of your team? And often enough, I found it's not, you know, and so you've got to facilitate your team, really understanding each other.

You also, as a leader, you got to facilitate an environment to get the best out of that team. And then you got to create a plan. So, so I've used personality profiling an awful lot since that infamous conversation I had with my financial controller many years ago.

Myers-Briggs just happens to be from the college my son graduated from. DISC is used an awful lot. I don't care what it is, but go through a methodology and a process from a professional organization that can really help you dig into that.

And then facilitate a conversation so people don't just know their personality profiles, they know how to better deal and work with other personalities. Then most important part, you get everyone in a room if you can, and physical is better than virtual if you can pull it off and you create a plan. And I think this is where some people misinterpret collaboration as kumbaya, an agreement.

The planning exercise that exposes hidden risks

No, a highly collaborative planning session gets pretty emotional, sparks will fly, you'll challenge each other, but you'll do it in a professional way that you come out with the best damn plan ever. And one of the experiences I share, a consultant years ago gave me this best practice of a year from now exercise that is so impactful, Andy. You pull together this great plan, you're all pleased with yourself.

At the end of the day or the end of the session, you run two scenarios. A year from now, Andy's on the unemployment line with a tatted corporate t-shirt and someone looks at you and said, but a year ago you were doing so well, you had all this opportunity, you had this great team, blah, blah, blah. And the exercise as a team is what went wrong.

And Andy, if you've set up the right environment, it's incredible what comes out. It's like, well, I know we've got a good sales team, but they're a little arrogant. So they don't really work it well.

They don't use the ammunition from marketing as well as they could. And so you create a list of stuff, tough, tough topics to go deal with. The counter to that is a year from now.

Oh my God, we've got success at a level we never thought possible. What are the things we really did? And a lot of things come out as, you know, we actually acted as a team, right?

We didn't let heroes get in the way of team success. You know, we put in a rigid operating system that didn't get diluted. And so creating that plan needs to translate into a set of metrics, an operating system that we hold ourselves accountable because, you know, the two of my most overused one-liners are number one, in God we trust, everyone else bring data.

So let's make sure it's factual and accurate. And then the second one is, you know, don't confuse effort with results. An old leader of mine said, Hey, we're not in the newspaper industry.

We're not selling news. We're making news. So don't show up and just tell me I'm busy.

I want to know what we're, what difference we're making to our customers, to the market, to the mission. I mean, let's learn from that. So and also, I think it's also important to have some fun with it, right?

You know, catch people doing good things, share success, you know, and, you know, have a culture where you can deal with the tough issues as fast as possible, but it's tough out there, right? We're all getting bombarded by social media, new, you know, doom and gloom, philosophies, AI is gonna put us all out of business. You gotta have some, you gotta, you gotta create that culture that, that gives you that platform for success as well.

[Andy Goram] (23:43 - 24:03)

I mean, if you take each of these elements in isolation, these aren't new things that people haven't talked about, right? These aren't new, new, new things. Um, and that's not being rude that these are things is your position in this, in the, the unique or the required element is that all of these stitched together, right?

Why strategy fails when operating models don't align

[Chris White] (24:03 - 25:20)

Oh, thanks for pointing that out, Andy, because it's so true, because to your point, you can point at each other and say, well, we do that. I don't know. I've got a plan.

Andy, you, you probably wouldn't be surprised, but you kind of shocked if I gave you names of names, but I'm not gonna, you know, I'll protect the innocent here, but you know, the number of companies I've walked into that either they've handed me or I found the strategic plan that they sold investors, sold their shareholders, sold their company on. And then I look at the operating model, but does not align to that strategic plan. And so to your point, you've got to put all the chinks in that chain together.

Otherwise you're not going to get maximum output. And I think this is where a lot of the sort of head fakes in the business come in. Oh no, I had a great planning session.

Everyone got on really well. Oh my God. Okay.

But have you now translated that planning session into a new operating model? Have you changed the way you operate? Right.

Um, and no, thanks for pointing that out. Cause it's such an important part of, uh, you know, the, the, the lessons I've learned, the, the things I've learned from leaders, but the value of the framework is yeah. You know, you can't skip from one to three, right?

There's what's that great other analogy. There's no, uh, there's no elevator to success, right? You got to take the stairs.

[Andy Goram] (25:21 - 26:37)

I think this is the interesting thing when it comes to things like strategy, which I think has been made out and to be some sort of dark art that only a few people behind a very, very heavy blocks door allowed to sort of play with is that there's a real conflation between strategy and plan. I think there's a lot of people that love putting plans together, the things we're going to do. That's great.

And they feel very comfy normally from their operational silo. Yeah. We're going to do these things, but where it all goes awry is where they haven't done the pre-thinking about actually what's the strategy where, where are we choosing to play?

How are we going to win in that market? And if that's the case, to your point, what are the capabilities that we need? What are the systems that are going to support all those sorts of things that in my experience, where I've seen a team really work together and really collaborate is where that strategy or key strategies were really well understood.

And then the plans had rigorous alignment to those pieces of strategy. So instead of everybody in scattergun and achieving their things, we were all, we may have been working independently. We may have been deliberately collaborating on things, but we're all contributing to that delivery of strategy.

[Chris White] (26:38 - 28:31)

Andy, it's such an important topic, right? You know, we, we created a startup business within Cisco called our smart grid strategy. Right.

And it was, you know, when the electrification of the grid was going digital, uh, you know, Cisco was a big company at the time and access to, I think the number was 3,500 utility customers around the world. We had a team of 20 Andy, right. And we looked at an adoption curve of, okay, who are, you know, laggards and people that are going to suck resources and not buy anything.

Who are the early adopters and the, and the people that are going to buy something. We came up with a list of 100, 100 out of three and a half thousand. And we made a commitment to say, that's our beachhead.

I don't care how sexy the meeting is or where the location is. We're going after those 100 as a team. And, and, and, and I think, and it was based on a lot of advice from the famous author, Jeffrey Moore from Silicon Valley, crossing the chasm as a bit of a Bible and tech tech world.

And one of the analogies that have stuck with me so well, he's like Chris in California. And those, those odd occasions, you get sunshine in England. Uh, you know, you take a piece of paper, you take a magnifying glass, you get the sun to focus on an area.

You do not move your hand randomly around that piece of paper and it feels like a long time, but it's actually not that long. And then you get combustion and that analogy, because God bless us to your point. We all, we're all busy.

It's not non-intentional collaboration, but the functional silos are wound up. Get off, go do your mission and don't get distracted. But then you're missing that X factor of, well, what if I did use HR as a strategic weapon?

What if I did understand the financial position? What if I did use that marketing material a little better? You know, those are the X factors that get you more growth, more sustainability, more better culture, more retention.

Collaboration versus teamwork: understanding the difference

[Andy Goram] (28:32 - 29:24)

For me. And I haven't really thought about this before, but collaboration comes in different flavors because I think the basic vanilla, everybody thinks about collaboration or my assumption. I can't speak for everybody is that collaboration is me working alongside you together, right?

I have to be with you working on the same thing together at once. Whereas where you've got this framework in place, particularly, you know, know what, know where you're going and this kind of headline strategy. I don't have to be with you to collaborate on that, right?

I don't have to be working on the same piece of paper or in the same chat stream or in the same meeting. Actually, my efforts are all guided towards the same target as you. So we are in effect collaborating.

Right. And I think this is the difference, right?

[Chris White] (29:25 - 29:31)

Andy, it is another great observation because if you're not careful, collaboration can be easily misinterpreted.

[Andy Goram] (29:31 - 29:32)

Yeah. It's teamwork!

[Chris White] (29:32 - 30:43)

It's Kumbayah, it's teamwork. Everyone shows up and, you know, use another overused analogy, right? This is not 11 year old soccer, right?

You're not got, you know, 21 little kids running around off to the ball. It's like, no, hang on a minute. You know, I'm not even going to use Cristiano Ronaldo.

I'll use Harry Kane, right? Harry Kane's good at putting the ball in the back of the net, right? We got good old Pickford to save goals.

Let the goalkeeper do his job, let Kane do his job, but let the team work as a team on a mission to win the goals. And I think it's such a subtlety because even Cisco, by the way, it's not very well publicized, but they leaned into collaboration a little too heavily, had this whole boards and collaboration activity that everyone was expected to use. And it became too much of an overhead.

It actually slowed things down because all of a sudden the wrong people, I wouldn't say the wrong people were collaborating, but there was almost too much overhead involved in the operating model. You've also got to make sure you've got as an efficient system as possible that finance team gets finance stuff done, salespeople get sales stuff done, but that power of the team is working together to get you that multiplier.

The myth of the hero leader

[Andy Goram] (30:43 - 31:28)

Yeah. I think that power of the team is something I also want to pick up in your list because I think you said the myth of the hero leader in there. I think currently we are seeing that traditional leadership model, uh, or, or typical shadow that people would say, that's what leadership is about.

We're seeing that being challenged left, right, and center, not just because of changing generations coming through or technology changing the landscape. I think of leadership is morphing and I'm just interested in, in just getting a little bit more from you on that myth of the hero leader and the changes that you're seeing inside organizations and what, what this does to this whole notion of how teams are set up and how we collaborate as organizations.

[Chris White] (31:28 - 32:49)

Yeah. And that's, you get onto, if you're not careful, a little bit of a thorny topic actually, because you know, Hey, who wouldn't want to be Steve jobs, right? Who wouldn't want to potentially be Elon Musk.

Right. But I would argue if you're not careful and even, you know, good old Jensen and Nvidia, right. There are a little bit of markets of one, you know, they are incredible anomalies that are great to aspire and lead to, but is their style that scalable.

Right. And so leave that 1% where it is and have admiration and credit for it. If you want, then there's the rest of us that have got to figure out with our capabilities, how do we, you know, step up and lead.

And so to your point, you know, and I think you're touching a little bit on the dynamic of AI in our world today, you know, if we're not careful, everyone's got their own strategy because they've thrown it into Claude or chat GPT, and they're doing it in silos. And that very functional silo operating model that motivated me to write this book is getting turbo charged at a level is going to be insane. So do you understand what each silo is using AI to do?

And is it either breaking us apart or really getting us better as a team, but without intentional collaboration, it's potentially making those silos even worse.

[Andy Goram] (32:49 - 33:18)

And the work that you've done and in the work that you're now doing, do you see, is there still maybe an over-reliance on hierarchy over departmental interdepartmental human relationships? Is this, are we still functioning too much in, in some of that model or actually, Andy, we're seeing it, we're seeing a lot of change. I'm actually seeing a lot of change in that area.

What's, what's your take on it?

[Chris White] (33:18 - 35:16)

Yeah, it's, uh, another challenging question. Good job. You know, the challenge of a fricking leader is to lead.

Right. And I think the challenge is not enough. People double click on what is involved in leadership, right?

You know, they get promoted, you know, they're, they do, they're passionate about doing a startup and it's like, okay, what are the responsibilities that come with leadership? What are those responsibilities? Andy's is to empower your team, right?

You know, some people are successful being a micromanager, but they typically find out that it's not a scalable style. However, you don't just empower your team, right? You got to make sure you're strategically aligned.

You got to make sure those, those team members have the tools, the talent, and the training to do their jobs as best as possible. I think what's shocking Andy is the number of real, true, inspiring leaders we all have is a pretty short list. You know, I, you know, I like you, I've read a lot of books.

I'm a, I'm a curious leader, a curious person. I'm keep looking for, you know, more and more examples. It isn't that long a list, right?

I had the good fortune of working with the late general Colin Powell, right? He ran the American fricking defense business, right? You know, he was a jet five-star general.

His mission was not to, not to be the best at fighting wars. His mission was to stop wars, to avoid conflict. And it was just a fabulous human being that really did an incredible job across way bigger and enterprise than Cisco ever had.

But an inspiring leader, because number one, he was just a damn good person, Andy. He had high efforts, high moral values. He gave a damn about his, his team, but boy, he had a mission.

He had clarity of execution. He held people accountable and, and, and, and he got stuff done. He got the right stuff done.

It was incredible.

[Andy Goram] (35:16 - 37:04)

I think this is what's really interesting when it comes to the leadership stuff. And the reason I asked that question about the hero leader and all the rest of it is that it may be that I am horribly biased because of the kind of person that I am. But if I think about the people who've had a real impact on me, and it wasn't always the, the head of the organization, but I was very lucky.

I think I worked for some fantastic people at different levels. I worked for some less fantastic people, but those people that have lasting impact on me and people I still reference when this sort of topic comes up are the people who, I don't talk about the strategies that they put into place, right? Or the amazing ideas that they might've had.

And that's not to say that they didn't, but that's not the thing that I recall. That's not the thing that has stayed with me. It's been the impact on me has been around what they, what they got from me, what they made me do that I perhaps didn't think I could do.

Maybe some home truths they shared with me that gave me choices that if I'd never had that told to me, I would never have made how they went about it. And also their consistency, not just with me, but with, with other people. Now, to me, those are the traits of leadership.

I don't think that that is a generational thing. I suspect if we look back at any generation, there've been people that have been doing those things, that their numbers, their percentage of the overall mix may have been different. But to me, that's, that's the thing I would be looking for in leadership to be less about how great that individual is and how great they are at growing the people around them.

Human collaboration: the second superpower

[Chris White] (37:05 - 38:04)

You know, I just got back from Switzerland. I did two keynotes over there. And the first, first keynote, I talked a lot about AI being a superpower and how we've got to learn, you know, we've got to be careful with it.

It's a fricking powerful tool. The second, I adjusted the second one and say, hang on a minute. No, no, no.

We have two superpowers at our disposal. AI is one. The second one is human collaboration.

And you highlighted right there on what leaders got the best out of you, what leaders got the best out of me, what leaders didn't get the best out of me. Right. I, I somewhat allude to, you know, I don't sign up to a tool of the hun leadership styles.

Some people do Andy. And Hey, you know, you know, Hey, that's okay. It doesn't get the best out of me.

But to your point, I think great leaders really do a good job of, of, and it's the framework exercise, right? It's not just that good public speakers. It's not just they're good at one-on-ones, not just they're good humans.

They connect all those dots that make them great leaders that have got more out of me than I thought was possible.

[Andy Goram] (38:04 - 38:39)

I want to just quickly cover a little bit more of this AI before we even think about trying to summarize that this, this discussion, which I have loved, by the way, when it comes to the AI thing at the moment, there's a lot of us looking over our shoulder going, well, AI is just. Reducing the reliance and the requirement for people. And yet at this time, your message is almost in the complete opposite direction when it comes to the marriage of AI and people, you just tell us where that, where that core belief comes from.

Yeah.

[Chris White] (38:39 - 39:42)

One of it, I got to give credit to a, to a Stanford professor at a NVIDIA's GTC conference two years ago, she had a great breakout and she highlighted human beings track record of creating tools, you know, printing press, the wheel, the internet, you name iPhone, whatever it is. Right. She also went on to say, we've got an interesting track record of using them for good or for evil, you know, take a good old car wrench, right?

If you're stuck on the M four shooting down rain, you've got to change a tire. Having a car wrench is pretty good tool to have. If you go out of the pub one night, go down the wrong alley and someone's got a car wrench, that's probably not a good scenario.

You know, here we go to AI automotive industry, right? When we first bought cars to market, we walked in front of them with a flag to slow down progress. Human beings took 50 years to invent a seatbelt.

It took us 75 years to mandate usage of them and it saves over a million lives a year. So our track record of tools is very interesting.

[Andy Goram] (39:42 - 39:42)

Yeah.

[Chris White] (39:42 - 40:10)

However, I think we've really got to lean in and learn how to use AI for good. And we've got to learn in and get better at human collaboration just at the time as de-globalization is a topic, right? Arrogant leaders is a topic, right?

You know, Hey, like I started out, right? I'm a optimistic guy. I'm a global citizen and I'm a digital optimist.

But like all these tools, you got to learn to use them for good versus evil.

[Andy Goram] (40:11 - 40:43)

I think there's something else running through this because you're hugely passionate and enthusiastic and have a lot of energy for this topic. And right, I think at the start of this conversation, you talked about one factor in this framework, really being about mindset and positive mental attitude. Now we haven't gone into any great level of detail on that, but your own personal situation, the, the whole battle with cancer and everything that, that, that must, that must have given you clarity of direction and why this is an important thing, right?

Those are the things that really bring everything into focus and show you what really, really matters.

Cancer, perspective and why the book had to be written

[Chris White] (40:44 - 41:32)

Uh, yeah, Andy, it's, uh, you know, it's a tough topic and we also talk about leadership, right? You know, too many of us have evolved our leadership style to say, Oh my God, you've got a, you've got a health crisis. Take your time.

You'll be okay. You know, it's the second battle. My, my wife and my family have gone through with cancer.

I don't think enough leaders, unless you've been really close to it, realize what a tectonic shift someone is going through when they face that sort of battle. Right. I decided to take, take a year off and not get back into the corporate world, you know, and support my wife through this fight.

I didn't realize I was going to have so much time on my hands, um, in doctor's waiting rooms, helping my wife sleep through chemotherapy. And I've got to be honest, Andy, no desire to write a book.

[Andy Goram] (41:32 - 41:32)

Yeah.

[Chris White] (41:32 - 42:20)

Um, but I have a lot of time on my hands to reflect on a career experiences and I'm like, God dang it. You know, if this book helps five people, I'll be happy. Um, I think it can help a lot more than that.

Um, and especially at the time we find ourselves both in history, economically, and that fear factor of AI taking over the world. But just remember, right? Social, this is the first major pivot we've had where 8 billion people in the world have been connected with social media and the algorithms are designed to make us fear all this stuff.

Right. You know, and it dates back to caveman days, right? We, the brain is wired that way we got up and I don't want to get eaten by a saber tooth tiger or a mammoth today.

I just got to go find some food and get back in my shelter. Um, so connect the dots and lean into this.

Chris White's three Sticky Notes

[Andy Goram] (42:20 - 42:49)

I love it. I love it. So look, we've got to this bit in the show, Chris, I like to call sticky notes.

I'm going to ask you to try and leave the audience with three little pearls of wisdom that for you crystallize the notion and maybe even the actions associated with non-optional collaboration. So if you were to leave behind three little sticky notes, the people could stick around their screen to remind them every day when they're working, what they need to do, what would those three things be my friend?

[Chris White] (42:50 - 45:30)

Well, first of all, you got to take a reflection on even the request for sticky notes, because even in this digital, because I'm dead serious about it, right? Even in this digital era, the practical reality of having a sticky note on your screen, on your phone is incredibly powerful. And I think that is a multi-generational generational benefit.

Um, it's a great way to finish this session. Cause it's a real challenge to someone like me that is so passionate on so many topics, but you know, I'll give you, I'll give you my three, you know, you hit on it a number one mindset matters, you know, positive mental attitude, but it takes some work. You know, we're getting bombarded by stuff that takes us down rabbit holes and God, you know, God knows the market for cat videos out there.

There's a lot of distractions out there, you know, lean into stuff that will get you in the right frame of mind. A friend of mine's launched a super conscious app that helps you program your brain on a regular basis to stay focused and stay positive. So number one, mindset matters.

And, and PMA is the little acronym I use positive mental attitude, work on it. It's okay to have a bad day, but reset yourself and lean in to be positive. Number two, sometimes you got to slow down to speed up and that's the art of collaboration, right?

This isn't functional speed. This is company speed. You know, it's getting that pit stop done in under three seconds versus 21 seconds.

Right? So be conscious of it, be curious and God forbid you listen to the other function that think is trying to add value to your role. Um, and I think the third one is a little bit of, you know, you alluded to it again in this great session, Andy, you know, have a plan, work the plan.

We've been telling people that for years, why on earth do not enough people do that? But you get into the whole philosophy of change management and it's, you know, yo, I need to go to the gym every day, but I don't, and I'm distracted. It's blah, blah, blah.

But you know, in all seriousness, and that's what I've tried to give with the book, give people at least a framework that is not just Chris White's experience. It's based on working with the great John chambers, history, training sessions, great HR and functional leaders, but have a plan, work the plan, right? Don't confuse effort with results.

Um, and to, to the sobering reality of what I was challenged with, right? You know, you got to enjoy the journey. I know that's a throwaway throwaway line, but boy, you know, enjoy that world cup game.

Enjoy that cup of coffee. Enjoy the time you have with your loved ones. Cause you know, there's a randomness to life that you never know that you never know what's around the corner.

So, you know, try and embrace it, but it takes some work.

[Andy Goram] (45:31 - 45:44)

Amen to that, my friend, Chris, I've really enjoyed meeting, connecting, listening to you. If the listeners would like to find out a bit more about you and the work that you're doing and get hold of the book, where can they track you down, my friend?

[Chris White] (45:44 - 46:41)

Oh, thank you, Andy, for that. Um, you know, first of all, you know, I, my daughter helped me launch it. I've got a website called non-optional direct collaboration.com.

So literally www.nonoptionalcollaboration.com book is available, you know, not at all leading retailers, but on good old Amazon, it's on Amazon UK, it's on Amazon India. It's on Amazon Australia. It's on Amazon USA, again, non-optional collaboration.

And then too, I'm an actual collaborator, right? I enjoy connecting with people on LinkedIn. So it's Chris White, uh, you know, IOE, um, look me up, connect me.

You know, I like to continue this conversation with equally passionate people, Andy, that kind of give a damn and want to make a positive influence on people. So, you know, I I'm looking forward to us continuing this conversation and our collaboration and, you know, you're, you're a friend of my brother's and he's got a tremendous amount of respect for you. So thank you, Michael, for introducing us together.

Um, but you know, let's see what else we can do together as well. Andy, I'm glad we're connected.

[Andy Goram] (46:42 - 46:49)

I look forward to that, my friend. Brilliant. Listen, thank you so much for coming on.

It's been absolutely fantastic and the best of luck with the book and everything else that you're doing right now.

[Chris White] (46:50 - 46:58)

I appreciate it. Great job back at you, Andy. It's a great, great podcast and looking forward to touching base and helping interact with more of your, your listeners.

[Andy Goram] (46:58 - 47:37)

Thank you very much. Okay, everyone, that was Chris White. And if you'd like to find out a bit more about him or any of the topics that we've talked about on today's show, please check out the show notes.

So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like comment and subscribe.

It really helps. I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the sticky from the inside podcast until next time. Thanks for listening.

Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.